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You are listening to Burnt Toast! Today, my guest is Jessica Wilson, MS, RD.
Jessica is a clinical dietitian and host of the podcast Making It Awkward. Her critiques of American food hysteria have been featured in The New York Times, Washington Post, and other outlets, and Jessica’s ultra processed food experiment received coverage in Time Magazine last fall. Jessica was last on the podcast to celebrate the release of her book, It’s Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies, which explores how marginalized bodies, especially black women’s bodies, are policed by society in ways that impact body autonomy and health.
Jessica is one of the most incisive thinkers I know about wellness and diet culture, as well as food policy and nutrition. So I asked her to come back on the podcast today just to help us make sense of what is happening right now in public health. We’re going to get into RFK. We’re going to get into MAHA, we’re going to get into processed foods. I know you will find this conversation both hilarious and helpful.
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Episode 194 Transcript
Virginia
You were on the podcast back in 2023 to talk about your fantastic book, which I continue to recommend to folks all the time, called It’s Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies. And since then, you have been very busy. So tell us what you’re working on these days. What are you up to?
Jessica
2023 was a blur!
In 2024 I started doing a lot more listening to people in places of influence and power. I ended up at a few conferences, and noticed that I really enjoyed having people say the quiet part out loud. I was like, maybe this could be a podcast where I get people just to say the things that they were thinking on the inside. So that’s been great! The debut of Making It Awkward just happened to coincide with Dr. Chris van Tulleken’s book release Ultra-Processed People which released a hysteria about ultra-processed foods. I thought it was very dramatic and silly. I was like, what can I do to have this conversation be less chaotic? And actually include more truth telling? And what are we actually supposed to learn from this?
So I decided to repeat his 30 day experiment, where he ate ultra-processed foods for 30 days. Which, from the photos and pictures, it looked like he was eating at McDonald’s for 30 days for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And that’s not how people live.
Virginia
That’s not how people live.
Jessica
No Trader Joe’s?
Virginia
Also, we already have Super Size Me.
Jessica
I know.
Virginia
Now we’re watching the rise of Make America Healthy Again. There’s a lot going on right now that is fairly terrible. And it’s a little bit of a chicken and egg thing, trying to track it all. Do you think MAHA fed into the ultra-processed food phobia? Or did the fear mongering around processed foods help beget us this current moment Because they’re very intertwined, right?
Jessica
I think separating them is impossible. What I think made all of these things connect is that we had women baking bread at the beginning of COVID. Like we were just going to explore all these lovely domestic things And then somehow that tipped over into trad wife territory.
Virginia
Ah yes, people were home in lockdown doing all the domestic things. And the communities that were already sort of entrenched in homeschooling—
Jessica
—were like, look at us on Tiktok! So tradwives became trending, and people became obsessed. I too was looking at the milkmaid mom of it all.
That was happening at the same time vaccines were being required to get back into spaces and for the world to open up again. So we have bread-baking tradwives and moms who were really concerned about vaccines. And I honestly think it was also just a power play at the time and performative existence to say, “We don’t want our kids vaccinated.” So all of these things: We have food, we have moms, we have vaccines, and then we have somebody who was speaking to all of these things, and that just happens to be RFK, Jr.
Virginia
He sort of threads all these things together, even though his position on these things is quite squishy.
Jessica
Right! He really pulls on his family legacy, which is fully Democrat. But then all of a sudden, he’s not. He was running for president on very squishy, unclear statements, about food, but always very clear he was anti-vaccine. And then, with the suspension of his presidential campaign, the Make America Healthy Again super PAC folks were like, “We can’t let this energy that went to RFK go to waste.” And aparently the Harris campaign didn’t take his call. So that implies, you know, he could have gone either way.
Virginia
He was like, “I’m open to whoever.”
Jessica
“I’m looking to be an important person.”
Virginia
Firm moral compass there.
Jessica
I do give some credit to getting Trump elected from the people who were like, “I guess if this is the way we’ll get RFK, we’ll vote in this election.”
Virginia
Let’s talk about what’s happening right now. We are recording this at the end of April. Folks are going to be listening to this in a couple of weeks. Who knows what else will happen in the month of May!
Post-recording note: So many things, mostly terrible! For example, RFK’s Surgeon General pick, wellness grifter Casey Means.
But at the moment, we’re really grappling with two issues. So I thought we could take them one at a time. The first one is this war on food dyes, which is obviously coming out of the processed food fear-mongering, right? RFK is specifically going after food dyes. Well, and sugar—he kind of always lumps them together.
Jessica
Isn’t that interesting?
So back in January, Red Dye #3 was on the chopping block for the FDA. I think it was kind of viewed as a test case for how engaged the public will be about banning food dyes. It got a lot of support influencers—Jillian Michaels, Mark Hyman, Vani Hari and all of the people who have their fully unregulated supplement lines—who are very invested in this red dye conversation. I think it’s because it’s so easy, it’s so simple for people to understand “Red Dye #3.”
Then last week as of this recording, RFK has his news conference where he’s talking about artificial dyes. And you know, “these are bad because they’re petroleum-based dyes.” So almost every news outlet that was covering the conference came away saying “RFK and the FDA is banning artificial food dyes.”
Rewind to that actual conversation: He was just saying, “Wouldn’t it be great if these food companies would just get on board and do this?” It’s voluntary. There is no ban. But everybody’s covering it as “banned.” How are we not putting together the pieces that RFK is just saying things and hoping they’ll happen?
Virginia
He’s hoping he can manifest it. It’s like a vision board for food dyes.
Can we back up for a second, too, and say what is his concern about food dyes and how valid that is?
Jessica
So I actually don’t have a clear vision for what he thinks the problem is—other than it’s just a literally shiny, bright light. If we were worried about petroleum, we could talk about asthma, we can talk about the oil and gas industry. There are so many things that we could actually talk about, if we were concerned about petroleum.
Virginia
But for that to be the one petrochemical we focus on…
Jessica
And how much of it are we eating? Especially with Red Dye No 3, when they were looking at its cancer-causing potential—it was in rat models where rats were fed a giant amount of red dye. There have also been some connections, especially from parents, between behavioral problems and certain dyes. The research out there, per the FDA, has said that there is some science, but it’s not clear, so let’s continue to monitor.
I definitely will not discount anybody’s personal experience with those food dyes. And does that mean we should ban it? Or does it mean that people could look at food labels? To pick up on that as the primary thing that is causing cancer for kids and making them unhealthy is wild.
Virginia
Yeah, it’s a big leap, from a little bit of data that’s pretty unclear to “let’s ban this,” and celebrate this as RFK getting the job done.
And then he went on the whole “sugar is poison” rant. Both these focuses of his feel very anti-fat to me. There’s definitely a lot of diet culture coding throughout that.
Jessica
I was noting in a lot of the MAHA rhetoric, and even in those confirmation hearings, the phrase “childhood obesity” isn’t invoked as often as I feel like it was in the Obama administration, or even by Biden, and by grants and nonprofits. That was always their scary thing that we want to protect kids from. And now it’s “chronic disease,” which of course includes obesity [in their minds], but its different words. I’m wondering if it just sounds better.
Virginia
I’m interested that they’re talking less directly about a “war on obesity” than previous administrations. I think part of it is the focus on autism—that’s the “epidemic” that Kennedy is fixated on.
I’m also wondering if he’s trying to avoid the Ozempic conversation, because his position on Ozempic has been complicated. He was like, “We need to lose weight the old fashioned way.” Americans just need healthy food, three meals a day, and that’s all it’ll take. Which, you know, that’s not exactly how that works. But the drug manufacturers are extremely powerful, and he can’t actually, in his position now, say that he doesn’t think Ozempic is a good idea. And he’s not going to say Americans shouldn’t be losing weight. He’s not going to criticize the goal of losing weight. Obviously, he’s pro-weight loss. But I don’t think he wants to be as pro-Ozempic as others in the administration probably are, and want him to be. So I’m wondering if he’s stepping back there. I don’t know. This is speculation.
Jessica
Right, which is often all we have, because who actually knows what’s going on in the brain that formerly had a worm in it?
Virginia
It is very unclear what is in the brain of a man known for carrying dead animal carcasses weird distances.
Post-recording note from Virginia: I appreciate this piece by noting how unhelpful the “brain worm” jokes are. It’s eugenics!
The autism stuff, I have to say personally, makes my blood boil. It’s so offensive. And he’s framing it again out of this concern for children, right? “The moms are so concerned about the kids.” As a mom, I’m like, wow, you don’t represent me at all. Please stop talking.
Jessica
He talks about autism as a preventative disease, and it’s got to be caused by something in the environment, is what he has said over and over again. So we’re going to figure out what that thing is in the environment. He’ll talk about how nobody had autism when he was a child.
Virginia
He just never met anyone. He also didn’t know any fat people.
Jessica
Oh, right. And nobody with chronic diseases. And nobody with mental health concerns. Especially not in his family.
Virginia
No, not in his own family! I mean, I do believe that there was never a fat Kennedy. Because I don’t think they let you be a fat Kennedy between the drug issues and the eating disorders there.
Jessica
Many people have pointed out the increase in screenings among folks of color, among women, awareness and how all of these things contributed to the improved awareness of autism, which is great. And yes, his understanding of statistics is…unsmart. And the need to find an environmental concern harkens back to his initial environmental justice work, which has just gone by the wayside.
But yes, the most recent statements—all while Love on the Spectrum is trending on Netflix.
Virginia
Interesting!
Jessica
His take is that folks with autism will not fall in love. They don’t pay taxes. One that people have not been repeating is that they won’t get to play baseball, basically creating an underclass of folks with autism and otherwise. And I’m like, sir. Do you know how many neurodivergent people are athletes, and that’s what makes them good? But anyway.
Even in the conversations about how wrong he is, we lose that every individual, regardless of level of support needs with autism, is deserving. All of the arguments that were like, “People with autism pay taxes.”
Virginia
But let’s not value people purely by their economic contributions. That’s a weird way of determining our humanity. It’s really depressing.
Jessica
Right? I feel like his draw to autism started with the vaccines of it all. I feel like maybe that was his intro, because the convergence of both his anti-vax and anti-science and pro-Jenny McCarthy, autism is caused by vaccines, has taken on a life of its own. Because it has transcended vaccine to now something in our environment. Is it something in our food? So that’s where he gets the ball rolling, and how things snowball is a mystery.
Virginia
Well, I think it’s not just him. I think that’s the wellness culture, diet culture lens of all of this. Because that’s what we’re trained to do, right? There are so many health conditions where you’re like, well, if I just cut out gluten. It didn’t fix it, so probably it’s the dairy. So probably it’s the… Well, maybe I just need to cut it all out, you know? He is elimination dieting always, with every issue he works on. That’s how it feels to me.
And I think that is a pattern we know really well, because we’ve all done it. We’ve been trained as good little foot soldiers of the diet industrial complex to do that. And so people are like, oh yeah, yeah, okay, so maybe it’s not the vaccines, but....
Plus, we never quite let go of the first conspiracy theory either. Even though as a journalist, I have been writing pieces to debunk that autism vaccine myth since my career began over 20 years ago. But okay! There are still people clinging to that one. And then adding on: Well, it’s probably the food dyes. It’s probably the gluten. It’s probably some other chemical in the environment. And I just think that’s the mindset we all have, and have been trained to have, about health.
Jessica
That’s a great point. Mark Hyman is one of the people who says gluten causes autism.
Virginia
Yes. He’s been selling this stuff forever.
I think what I find really enraging about it is how it preys on parents. And creates this divisiveness among parents too. Of course, you’re worried for your autistic or otherwise struggling kid. You’re trying to advocate for your kid. And you can waste so much time down these RFK rabbit holes. I see this all the time. Moms who are like, “Oh, well, they can’t have the snack foods because we’re managing this behavioral issue.” So much effort and energy is expended on controlling exposure to something that has nothing to do with what your child is struggling with. It isn’t going to make a difference.
Jessica
I’m on Facebook point .001% of the time, and every time I open it, it’ll be like, “I healed my child’s autism this way.” It’ll be, you know, “1 billion food things that I did differently.” And by the way, I also provided structure and sleep, which is very important. So hmm, was it the diet, or was it the sleep and structure?
Virginia
I both feel frustrated with these parents, and I feel for these parents, because they’re navigating something really difficult without support. But just the ableism of this whole idea that you need to “cure” autism is revolting to me.
Jessica
Or prevent it! We have not prevented it, and people have been okay. Like, what? What is happening? This is not new, friend. You just used to treat it with corporal punishment and abuse, and that’s not happening now.
Virginia
Which is progress, which is why we can stop hearkening back to this beautiful, mythical past that he wants us all to live in.
Jessica
Right? Yes, when things were great.
Virginia
The other piece that keeps enraging me is—and again, I realize I’m really going for the moms here—but the MAHA moms wjp keep saying things like, “I feel so much safer now. My child will be safe now.” Zen Honeycutt told her followers, “Pretty soon we won’t even need healthcare,” because of having RFK on this job.
I mean, the disconnect of these privileged white moms is disgusting. They feel like their child is so much safer now, under an administration that is making everybody else’s child so much less safe and deporting four year olds.
Jessica
The idea that we won’t have healthcare or need healthcare anymore is something that I don’t understand, because in the past, people needed healthcare. You know what they needed it for? Hmm, measles.
Now that everybody is going to have infectious diseases, we are going to need some healthcare that’s not vitamin A and cod liver oil for measles/ You’re making us need health care probably more.
Virginia
And the the narrow world view of “this feels better for my child, so therefore it must be better for everyone.”
Jessica
And how are you convinced that this is better for your kid? It is wild. I don’t know.
Virginia
I know, it’s dark.
What else is on your mind right now as you’re watching all this? What else do we need to hit on?
Jessica
Speaking of moms, I will always talk about pronatalism. There has been the headline that Elon wants us to have more babies. Like that is a proper headline.
Virginia
My ovaries shriveled up and died when I read that. I can imagine nothing less sexy than Elon wanting more babies. No. Done. Out.
Jessica
And at the same time, the administration is cutting so many services and support and ways to feed children. It’s about eugenics and having more white babies.
I don’t understand where the obsession is with creating these beautiful, white, brilliant children. They will say, because the economy is crashing, or the environment or something. But I’m like, no, you are deporting Black and brown people but you need people to uphold your economy. So what you’re doing is trying to fill in those gaps. You’ve deported every farm worker. So, do you want to create more babies in order to do the labor of folks? It’s confusing to me.
Virginia
It’s very confusing. This is the same political party and political system that fear-mongered about welfare queens for decades. Women having babies was the worst idea when it was poor, Black women having babies. And the fear was that some women have babies just to abuse the system—which didn’t ever exist, right? There are not enough resources in the system to make that remotely profitable. But the idea was that some women are just gaming the system, having all these babies. But now we want to create these super-powered white embryos and we want white women to have as many babies as possible.
Jessica
Absolutely, there has been mention of academic scholarships that will only go to women who are mothers or who will have babies. I’ve heard suggestions that we have better sex education.
Virginia
Yes! Menstrual cycle tracking. That is not at all creepy in an administration that also wants to take away abortion rights. That really blew me away, because it’s this panel of men being like, “Women need classes on how to track their menstrual cycles.” And I think we all learned it at like 11, sir? Women are not confused about what our menstrual cycles are doing.
Jessica
So maybe you want me to know where my ovulation is in my cycle. And in these apps that you’re already trying to steal our data from?
Virginia
I mean, men are deeply confused by menstruation, for sure. They don’t understand the cycle. But women have had this knowledge for centuries. We’ve got midwives, we’ve figured this out.
Jessica
I just keep trying to put together all of these things. More babies, more unvaccinated babies. People being able to buy their way into this ideal version of health, which again, is healthy, organic, whole foods. And then poor kids who need school lunches getting funding cut.
Virginia
Well, it is a terrifying time in so many ways. I’m grateful to you for helping walk us through some of it and bring a little clarity and humor to very dark moments.
Butter
Jessica
Sewing has come back into my life. I can’t recommend it to everyone, but it has fully detached me from social media and everything, because my hands are busy all the time. I’m not picking up a phone. I can’t even hear it because my sewing machine is going . I 10/10 regret buying an overalls pattern because of the one billion pieces, but it’s actually doing what I need it to do.
Virginia
Oh, overalls seem very challenging!
Jessica
10/10 do not recommend. But I am fully distracted from the state of the world. So, that is great.
Virginia
I mean, that’s how I feel about my garden. It gets me outside, off my phone, and yes, I would rather wrestle weeds and dig holes in very rocky soil and do all of that then be in the world often. So that’s a great Butter.
I figured in honor of you being here, I should shout out one of my favorite ultra-processed foods that makes my life so great right now. We’re on a real kick with frozen chicken tenders. I just feel like they’re a real unsung staple of eating that more people need to be talking about. I make them, because I have one kid who, that is their food. So I make them a bunch. But I’ve realized they are so versatile. Tacos, I can put them on salad. They are good in a pasta with a creamy sauce. They add the right crunch. There’s a lot you can do with frozen chicken tenders. And they are so fast and delicious.
Jessica
Walk around the house eating one, which, you know, I’ve done many a time, because, they are a few bites, and you can make a full circle around your house.
Virginia
Totally. Where would dinner be at my house without chicken tenders? So, yeah, that’s my butter this week.
Well, Jessica, thank you again for being here. Tell folks where we can find you, how we can support your work.
Jessica
Thank you. I’m on Instagram. My podcast is Making It Awkward. It comes out weekly. And let me tell you, it does get fun sometimes. I did have Jeff Hutt, the Make America Healthy Again spokesperson on, before he knew he wasn’t supposed to say things out loud. So that’s always good. You could find me in my garden. You can find me at JessicaWilsonmsrd.com. You can find me in the clinic—that’s something else I’ve been up to lately. I’m working at a queer and trans health clinic in a teeny, tiny private practice. So yeah, that’s where I am.
Virginia
Awesome. Well, thank you for being here with us!
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
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