Ash Brandin is one of my absolute favorite follows on Instagram, so I am so thrilled to read this. I am always telling everyone in my life to follow The Gamer Educator because people get so intense about screen time. I’m not a gamer, but my husband is, and the content is always helpful and relevant.
I loved this conversation for so many reasons! There is so much fear-mongering around screens and it leads to a lot of shame and unhealthy restrictive mindsets.
One thing I have recently been digging into is this idea of "what does screen time replace." That phrase definitely moralizes screen time in ways that aren't ideal. At the same time, I've been seeing data suggesting that for tweens and teens — especially boys — screens and games are really starting to take the place of in-person friendships, which during adolescence are quite important for development (including the development of their identities). So there is some nuance here that I'm continuing to explore.
That's interesting. I think it's clear that more screen time can mean less time for other experiences, just because we still have the same 24 hours in a day -- though I have definitely found anecdotally that when I step back, I can see that my kids are still reading, still having play dates, still going outside, etc -- even in a Saturday with a huge block of screentime, there are just actually quite a lot of hours to fill with kids! But I'm not going to argue that it's not shifting the way kids spend their time in meaningful ways.
I guess my question would be: Are we doing enough to challenge the default assumption that more screens and less other stuff is always bad? I can imagine, for example, that playing video games together opens up social doors for some kids who struggle more with in-person interactions due to neurodivergency or other differences. Also thinking of fat kids, queer kids, otherwise marginalized kids who feel super isolated by their in-person communities, and for whom screen time becomes a lifeline to actual community. So yes, so much nuance! Excited to read what you're working on.
I definitely think we can do more to challenge that default assumption. I think nearly everything I've written about screen time has been in service of pushing gently against those kinds of sweeping negative claims. Because, as you say, screens can also open up opportunities and can bring so much good stuff. But yeah -- I think we are just starting to figure out some of the not-so-great ways in which certain kinds and uses of screen time are affecting certain kids, and some of that does relate to this idea of replacement/displacement. And I think that's important to understand (and talk about in a nuanced way).
It's such a complex issue -- "screen time" can mean SO MANY different things and each one of its many components can also have different impacts on different kids.
I think on some level it needs to be an *actual question*, rather than a reflexive way to question screens in a sideways manner. That is, looking at each individual person and exploring what screens may be replacing and if that is actually an issue. Sometime there might be an actual issue, and other times there will not be.
Such a fun read! I don't have kids, but I started becoming a gamer in my late 20s, influenced by meeting my now-husband and the pandemic. I didn't really grow up with many screens (mostly due to financial limitations), so it's been so fun to learn and play! I'm obsessed with the Mario games – the new Wonder is SO FUN.
Time to Lean Podcast is also great! Laura Danger and Crystal Britt are both so great, and their content on the mental load always really resonates with me so I am glad Ash mentioned it.
This was such a great conversation, I really appreciate all the nuance and flexibility. A lot of this is so applicable to grown-ups too - I'm struggling with my own relationship with my phone because I think it is replacing things that I actually want to do. But this was a good reminder that getting all diet-culture shamey on myself is probably not going to help me resolve whatever is going on there.
And v glad I came to the transcript to see the YouTube instructions are linked! I have been meaning to do this because there are channels we really like (I bet I could clock the two Super Simple Songs vocalists from a mile away). And yet there is *so much garbage*, and appropriately for this forum it's often food restriction / ED adjacent garbage (some random video where a parent sings to the kid about how they better eat their peas and not lie about it, would like to delete that from my brain plz).
“What does screen time replace?” reminds me of the time my mom told her therapist she was always ravenous after her sessions and the therapist said, “What are you hungry FOR?” My mom told me this story when she cornered me about gaining weight, like every time I’m hungry I should be figuring out what emotion is making me THINK i’m hungry, or what eating is replacing.
Sometimes I have to walk away from the screen because my eyeballs hurt or it gives me a headache, but other times it feels totally luxurious to spend some of my leisure time looking at silly memes on Facebook or watching dog videos on Instagram.
I know, right? I also think like, you can be feeling big feelings or going through something and ALSO actually be hungry. You can be in a job or a relationship that isn’t working and be metaphorically “hungry” for something that is missing from your life…and also be physically hungry. The idea that physical hunger or the desire to eat has to be explained away by some underlying cause is baffling and infuriating to me.
This came at the very best time because I was searching the internet last night, trying to find content about screens like this one. My son has been sneaking screens and I realized that I have created an environment where he has to sneak something which I know will bring shame and I don't want that. But I have so many fears around it, it's been hard to get perspective. The opening line, comparing it to fat phobia, got me. Yes! That is me. As much work as I have done around my body, diet rules, fatphobia, I still have it hidden in those little insidious parts of my being which is frustrating but also helpful because once I realize the fear, I am able to let it go. So thank you for this. thank you thank you
I feel you!!! My daughter told me this morning that the reason she’s been watching Minecraft videos on Pinterest was because she thought “I had to hide it from you.” Gah! Sneaking and hiding is absolutely not the goal of kids and screens, especially when there is so much legit toxic stuff on there and we want them to be able to come to us with it. That’s convinced me to really change our approach and embrace it more (with structure! But not judgment).
This was such a great episode!! My husband and I have recently been talking about the parallels between food & screens and it's so eye-opening. I'm coming more from the food side and him from screens, but it resonates either way.
I know, there are so many mind-blowing connections! (Also hi - I finally ran your question as the Friday Thread post this week and the comments are OVERFLOWING with awesome recs!!)
I’m so glad there was conversation about YouTube. Both my kids, 8 and 5, love Kids YouTube. The younger one hides it every time we walk by as if she’s doing something wrong which feels like it could very tricky as she gets older. She knows I don’t love some of the videos she watches but I haven’t restricted them because they are mostly harmless, they just seem like capitalism for kids or long ads. But she is less likely to have a conversation with me about them. I think I need to change my approach.
I do wonder...when setting up limits to YouTube, is it too obvious to not allow those videos I don’t like her watching?? Just tell her, oops, they must have deleted all those Johnson Family videos. Oops! 😆
Loved this episode! I really thought the bath time analogy very helpful for both food and screens. I'm finding the distinction between boundaries and restrictions to be very murky. I have an under-2-year-old so the screen time recommendation is zero, but for some reason video calls are ok? It makes it sound like the recommendation is sponsored by Zoom. Like, are the screens hurting baby's brain or not? My kid has watched us plan grocery lists and balanc budget on computers and also watched Ms. Rachel, but I have guilt only about the last one. She wants me to turn the TV on almost every day, but I hold a boundary against it because she isn't supposed to have any screen time. Part of me wants to let her, but I don't have confidence in my judgement on this topic.
Hi, Allison! I’m a speech pathologist and early interventionist who works with the B-3 population. I think the distinction of FaceTime is that there’s more reciprocity and interaction than there would be with other types of videos.
Ms. Rachel incorporates a lot of those elements that mimic a video call! She gets close to the camera so it’s similar to how someone would hold their phone for a video call. She also pauses frequently to encourage participation. Don’t beat yourself up. I find her a lot less annoying than Cocomelon 😉
Thanks! That is a helpful distinction! I'm always wondering "why" or how these research findings are defining certain things (like "screen time"). Sometimes I like when she just plays with the remote because she is learning cause and effect!
Thanks for sharing the post on young adults' reflections on their screen time use. I finally felt like I was asking a real expert when I heard from them.
OMG I love the sticker story idea! I used to collect stickers in elementary school (anyone remember "oilies" or "fuzzies"... man the early 90s were great ;-) RedBubble is another great place for cool stickers!
I had so many fuzzy stickers! Our nearest pharmacy was still independent and they had an entire toy section clearly meant to entertain/entrap kids while their parents were picking up prescriptions. It had a whole aisle of just stickers and troll dolls.
I got a scratch and sniff sticker recently and now I need to find more of them, I had totally forgotten how awesome they are.
I appreciated the point about electronic toys and how they are marketed to adults. That is so true. I’m a speech pathologist who does home visits for kids under the age of 3, and research has shown that these toys tend to dominate interactions and “do the talking” for adults. Calling attention to the distinction between words and pictures in a book, pointing out what symbols in the environment mean, identifying the first letter in a child’s name, and letting a child take the lead with reading books are great ways to promote early literacy skills without needing to buy something from Leapfrog or other similar companies.
I’m so glad to see all the YouTube articles. We take care of our 7 year old granddaughter after school. YouTube is her favorite thing right now. She has a watch list but I don’t think she stays on it the way I want her to. I keep a pretty close eye on what she’s watching, but when she’s wearing headphones (the laugh track on funny animal videos is the worst) I lose my sense of what’s happening on screen.
My kids are in their early 20s now, but we bought them their first devices (Nintendo DS) before a long car trip. At the time, their school had a standard of reading 20 minutes a day, so we just used that as our guideline: did you finish your homework and do your 20 minutes of reading? You can use your device. The 'time has no meaning' of a long car trip also reinforced that structure: alternating between screens, reading (no one in my family gets car sick, luckily), enforced rest time, etc.
I realize that screens are much more prevalent (I Phones didn't exist) and kids get on them younger, but I do also think it's possible to set structure and it's ok to do so.
Ash Brandin is one of my absolute favorite follows on Instagram, so I am so thrilled to read this. I am always telling everyone in my life to follow The Gamer Educator because people get so intense about screen time. I’m not a gamer, but my husband is, and the content is always helpful and relevant.
I loved this conversation for so many reasons! There is so much fear-mongering around screens and it leads to a lot of shame and unhealthy restrictive mindsets.
One thing I have recently been digging into is this idea of "what does screen time replace." That phrase definitely moralizes screen time in ways that aren't ideal. At the same time, I've been seeing data suggesting that for tweens and teens — especially boys — screens and games are really starting to take the place of in-person friendships, which during adolescence are quite important for development (including the development of their identities). So there is some nuance here that I'm continuing to explore.
That's interesting. I think it's clear that more screen time can mean less time for other experiences, just because we still have the same 24 hours in a day -- though I have definitely found anecdotally that when I step back, I can see that my kids are still reading, still having play dates, still going outside, etc -- even in a Saturday with a huge block of screentime, there are just actually quite a lot of hours to fill with kids! But I'm not going to argue that it's not shifting the way kids spend their time in meaningful ways.
I guess my question would be: Are we doing enough to challenge the default assumption that more screens and less other stuff is always bad? I can imagine, for example, that playing video games together opens up social doors for some kids who struggle more with in-person interactions due to neurodivergency or other differences. Also thinking of fat kids, queer kids, otherwise marginalized kids who feel super isolated by their in-person communities, and for whom screen time becomes a lifeline to actual community. So yes, so much nuance! Excited to read what you're working on.
I definitely think we can do more to challenge that default assumption. I think nearly everything I've written about screen time has been in service of pushing gently against those kinds of sweeping negative claims. Because, as you say, screens can also open up opportunities and can bring so much good stuff. But yeah -- I think we are just starting to figure out some of the not-so-great ways in which certain kinds and uses of screen time are affecting certain kids, and some of that does relate to this idea of replacement/displacement. And I think that's important to understand (and talk about in a nuanced way).
It's such a complex issue -- "screen time" can mean SO MANY different things and each one of its many components can also have different impacts on different kids.
I think on some level it needs to be an *actual question*, rather than a reflexive way to question screens in a sideways manner. That is, looking at each individual person and exploring what screens may be replacing and if that is actually an issue. Sometime there might be an actual issue, and other times there will not be.
Yes! Definitely!
Such a fun read! I don't have kids, but I started becoming a gamer in my late 20s, influenced by meeting my now-husband and the pandemic. I didn't really grow up with many screens (mostly due to financial limitations), so it's been so fun to learn and play! I'm obsessed with the Mario games – the new Wonder is SO FUN.
Time to Lean Podcast is also great! Laura Danger and Crystal Britt are both so great, and their content on the mental load always really resonates with me so I am glad Ash mentioned it.
Time to Lean is wonderful!
This was such a great conversation, I really appreciate all the nuance and flexibility. A lot of this is so applicable to grown-ups too - I'm struggling with my own relationship with my phone because I think it is replacing things that I actually want to do. But this was a good reminder that getting all diet-culture shamey on myself is probably not going to help me resolve whatever is going on there.
And v glad I came to the transcript to see the YouTube instructions are linked! I have been meaning to do this because there are channels we really like (I bet I could clock the two Super Simple Songs vocalists from a mile away). And yet there is *so much garbage*, and appropriately for this forum it's often food restriction / ED adjacent garbage (some random video where a parent sings to the kid about how they better eat their peas and not lie about it, would like to delete that from my brain plz).
Bless you both for this!
It's definitely one I'll revisit when the panic returns!
“What does screen time replace?” reminds me of the time my mom told her therapist she was always ravenous after her sessions and the therapist said, “What are you hungry FOR?” My mom told me this story when she cornered me about gaining weight, like every time I’m hungry I should be figuring out what emotion is making me THINK i’m hungry, or what eating is replacing.
Sometimes I have to walk away from the screen because my eyeballs hurt or it gives me a headache, but other times it feels totally luxurious to spend some of my leisure time looking at silly memes on Facebook or watching dog videos on Instagram.
I so naively read “what are you hungry FOR” as wow you should go eat what you are craving--now I am sad it was just the opposite! Sigh.
I know, right? I also think like, you can be feeling big feelings or going through something and ALSO actually be hungry. You can be in a job or a relationship that isn’t working and be metaphorically “hungry” for something that is missing from your life…and also be physically hungry. The idea that physical hunger or the desire to eat has to be explained away by some underlying cause is baffling and infuriating to me.
Yes yes yes!!
This came at the very best time because I was searching the internet last night, trying to find content about screens like this one. My son has been sneaking screens and I realized that I have created an environment where he has to sneak something which I know will bring shame and I don't want that. But I have so many fears around it, it's been hard to get perspective. The opening line, comparing it to fat phobia, got me. Yes! That is me. As much work as I have done around my body, diet rules, fatphobia, I still have it hidden in those little insidious parts of my being which is frustrating but also helpful because once I realize the fear, I am able to let it go. So thank you for this. thank you thank you
I feel you!!! My daughter told me this morning that the reason she’s been watching Minecraft videos on Pinterest was because she thought “I had to hide it from you.” Gah! Sneaking and hiding is absolutely not the goal of kids and screens, especially when there is so much legit toxic stuff on there and we want them to be able to come to us with it. That’s convinced me to really change our approach and embrace it more (with structure! But not judgment).
This was such a great episode!! My husband and I have recently been talking about the parallels between food & screens and it's so eye-opening. I'm coming more from the food side and him from screens, but it resonates either way.
I know, there are so many mind-blowing connections! (Also hi - I finally ran your question as the Friday Thread post this week and the comments are OVERFLOWING with awesome recs!!)
Oh thanks!! Going to check it out now! ❤️
I’m so glad there was conversation about YouTube. Both my kids, 8 and 5, love Kids YouTube. The younger one hides it every time we walk by as if she’s doing something wrong which feels like it could very tricky as she gets older. She knows I don’t love some of the videos she watches but I haven’t restricted them because they are mostly harmless, they just seem like capitalism for kids or long ads. But she is less likely to have a conversation with me about them. I think I need to change my approach.
I do wonder...when setting up limits to YouTube, is it too obvious to not allow those videos I don’t like her watching?? Just tell her, oops, they must have deleted all those Johnson Family videos. Oops! 😆
Loved this episode! I really thought the bath time analogy very helpful for both food and screens. I'm finding the distinction between boundaries and restrictions to be very murky. I have an under-2-year-old so the screen time recommendation is zero, but for some reason video calls are ok? It makes it sound like the recommendation is sponsored by Zoom. Like, are the screens hurting baby's brain or not? My kid has watched us plan grocery lists and balanc budget on computers and also watched Ms. Rachel, but I have guilt only about the last one. She wants me to turn the TV on almost every day, but I hold a boundary against it because she isn't supposed to have any screen time. Part of me wants to let her, but I don't have confidence in my judgement on this topic.
Hi, Allison! I’m a speech pathologist and early interventionist who works with the B-3 population. I think the distinction of FaceTime is that there’s more reciprocity and interaction than there would be with other types of videos.
Ms. Rachel incorporates a lot of those elements that mimic a video call! She gets close to the camera so it’s similar to how someone would hold their phone for a video call. She also pauses frequently to encourage participation. Don’t beat yourself up. I find her a lot less annoying than Cocomelon 😉
Thanks! That is a helpful distinction! I'm always wondering "why" or how these research findings are defining certain things (like "screen time"). Sometimes I like when she just plays with the remote because she is learning cause and effect!
Thanks for sharing the post on young adults' reflections on their screen time use. I finally felt like I was asking a real expert when I heard from them.
I love that piece SO MUCH.
OMG I love the sticker story idea! I used to collect stickers in elementary school (anyone remember "oilies" or "fuzzies"... man the early 90s were great ;-) RedBubble is another great place for cool stickers!
I had so many fuzzy stickers! Our nearest pharmacy was still independent and they had an entire toy section clearly meant to entertain/entrap kids while their parents were picking up prescriptions. It had a whole aisle of just stickers and troll dolls.
I got a scratch and sniff sticker recently and now I need to find more of them, I had totally forgotten how awesome they are.
I appreciated the point about electronic toys and how they are marketed to adults. That is so true. I’m a speech pathologist who does home visits for kids under the age of 3, and research has shown that these toys tend to dominate interactions and “do the talking” for adults. Calling attention to the distinction between words and pictures in a book, pointing out what symbols in the environment mean, identifying the first letter in a child’s name, and letting a child take the lead with reading books are great ways to promote early literacy skills without needing to buy something from Leapfrog or other similar companies.
I’m so glad to see all the YouTube articles. We take care of our 7 year old granddaughter after school. YouTube is her favorite thing right now. She has a watch list but I don’t think she stays on it the way I want her to. I keep a pretty close eye on what she’s watching, but when she’s wearing headphones (the laugh track on funny animal videos is the worst) I lose my sense of what’s happening on screen.
My kids are in their early 20s now, but we bought them their first devices (Nintendo DS) before a long car trip. At the time, their school had a standard of reading 20 minutes a day, so we just used that as our guideline: did you finish your homework and do your 20 minutes of reading? You can use your device. The 'time has no meaning' of a long car trip also reinforced that structure: alternating between screens, reading (no one in my family gets car sick, luckily), enforced rest time, etc.
I realize that screens are much more prevalent (I Phones didn't exist) and kids get on them younger, but I do also think it's possible to set structure and it's ok to do so.