I just wanna say that I really appreciate that you always have transcripts for us. I know that's extra work, but I don't have the capacity right now to listen to another podcast and I do read the transcripts most of the time. So, thanks :)
I love Burnt Toast, love Sara’s work, but the New Yorker piece you’re talking about today had some major problems with definitions and the different philosophies covered. Einzig and Lansbury would never call themselves “gentle parenting” people—that vein of philosophy is respectful parenting (also called authoritative parenting), which is super, super different from gentle/attachment parenting. The Milk Giver/holier than thou/lactivist etc. stuff is far from respectful parenting, and I was pretty frustrated with how that Winter piece elided it all. Both respectful parenting and gentle parenting are responses to authoritarian/punitive stuff, but they differ enormously—respectful parenting supports sleep training (including extinction “cry it out”) and other practices that enable parents to be whole people, while “gentle” parenting is the stuff that says you have to sacrifice every comfort and need to ensure that your child never cries. I would just love to have a longer conversation distinguishing Lansbury and Visible Child from the morass of Kellymom and Insta lactivists!
I had so many thoughts going through this, but the part about how kids can see through the condescension of "I'm calmly picking apart your rage rather than acknowledging it in an emotional way" is so real to me as a person who above all cannot stand being condescended to. And I will say, the parents in my kid's pod last year who took that kind of tone with the kids were the ones my kid had the worst relationship with. Like, the one who addresses the kids as "friends" and has a long list of therapy recommendations at the ready? He will have nothing to do with.
But one of the interesting things was another of the sets of parents who had clearly read the books and they were really good, I thought, at selling the message "I hear your emotions but I am setting a calm, loving boundary." Only they eventually discovered that their kid responds well to being spoken to sharply. That the step after the calm loving boundary should, with him, be something more like a real rebuke. It was so interesting because they were the parents who I felt had sort of effectively modeled what many of the parenting advice books called for, and then they were like nope, gotta add another step. (When I say their kid responds well to it ... it's like when they're speaking to him in the calm way, he feels really compelled to try to argue his case through escalating sobs, hyperventilating and stammering and frantically trying to communicate, and when they speak more sharply he seems to kind of go oh, ok, I can just relax now, and he doesn't look cowed, he looks relieved, like I can feel my feelings without trying to prove I'm right.)
Really enjoyed this. Something I think about a lot, as someone who was raised in a religious family with authoritarian parenting, corporal punishment, etc. is: no one actually knows how to raise humans “ideally,” right? We have this idea that if we parent just right, our kids will grow up to have wonderful, uncomplicated relationships with us, nothing to work out in therapy, will always make good choices, and that’s just not how this works.
I appreciate some of the gentle parenting stuff for giving me different ways to think about and approach a situation than what I was raised with, because there are plenty of things my parents “solved” by hitting, and that’s not what I’m about. So tips on deescalating a conflict, getting to the bottom of big feelings, solving the problem underlying the behavior is useful. But I definitely do think it’s predicated on this anxiety and perfectionism and undercuts our confidence in how we know our own children. It’s one more way that parents (and particularly mothers) can feel like they aren’t enough: patient enough, creative enough, empathetic enough, present enough… but I know my kid. Sometimes he needs a hug and help talking through his feelings. And sometimes my attention is fuel on the fire and it’s time for a break in his room. I’m his parent; I’ve known him his whole life; I can make this calls better than a scoldy gentle parenting meme on Instagram.
So much appreciation for this conversation. I just listened to Sounds Like a Cult’s episode on Instagram therapists and I’m a longtime listener of Maintenance Phase and it’s been so fascinating to me how much overlap there is between what you are all saying in these pieces about social media, and media in general, around #wellness.
I’m a licensed therapist, a parent, my wife is a pediatrician and I still get sucked innnnn sometimes. It’s super helpful to have this kind of discussion to remind me to do some better critical thinking, listen to my gut, and investigate the sources. The line between helpful resource and misinformation gets so incredibly slippery!
I am really appreciative of your exploration of this topic. I feel like the whole obsession with gentle parenting took me in a really difficult direction. I found Dr Becky and the messaging felt so right to me so I committed myself to using the scripts. However, I never saw the promised outcomes and instead constantly felt resentful of putting myself and my needs behind everyone else. It actually took some solid therapy sessions to work through what was going on (it was taking a major toll on my mental health). About a week ago I saw that Washington Post article and had an aha! moment that maybe it wasn't a defect in me or my children. So much of it seems to fit with what I'm trying to do with our anti diet house and raising intuitive eaters but yet, something's falling short. Would love to keep this conversation going.
I almost cried listening to this. I have what is (kindly) described as a “spirited” child. I follow all these gentle parenting accounts and just keep feeling like something must be seriously wrong with me/my daughter because none of these scripts or tips ever work. They’ve also just never felt right, and you guys explained the reasons why so perfectly. I feel like gentle parenting is the libertarianism of parenting philosophy. In an ideal world where we have endless patience and resources at our disposal, maybe this would work? But probably not because parents are also people with emotions and frustrations, which tbh shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing or something we need to hide from our children. Thank you so much for the work you do!
I completely agree with the way a lot of gentle parenting 'coaches' have taken the gentle part to a degree that is unsustainable in real life situations. I also tried to get on board with Janet Lansbury when my oldest was a toddler, and her thing is to "remain unruffled" in the face of tantrums and general ass-hattery of the toddlerdom. And, I remember screaming "I'm feeling very ruffled" as I lost my bananas over a particularly bad fit from my 3 y/o. Also, agree that the scripts tend to be BS. When my oldest said to me that my voice sounds nice but my face looks angry, I knew I was doing it wrong.
HOWEVER, once I reframed the the idea from gentle parenting to compassionate parenting, and really internalized that my strong willed children's behavior is not a REFLECTION ON ME, it started to make sense. My 9 y/o describes my family as 'yell-y', so OBVIOUSLY I still yell. But, once, I'm able to reset, I make a point of coming back to my small person to apologize/process where things went sideways to repair. I also try to help the older ones (my 2 y/o isn't ready) learn how to recognize when they need connection, and then ASK for special time/hug/a few minutes to talk about or process something, rather than throwing their shoes at the lamp while I'm cooking dinner. And sometimes, that looks like my saying (yelling) "What do you need right now?" instead of "What is wrong with you?"
Also, I have 3 girls, and I would like to mention that most parenting coaches/ writers for this style only have 1 kid or maybe 2 very chill kids. DON'T FREAKING TELL ME HOW TO BE PATIENT WHEN I'VE BEEN SLEEP DEPRIVED FOR 10 YEARS, LADY. Basically use what works, and leave what doesn't. Some non-pretentious recommendations are Hand to Hand Parenting and Lori Petro/Teach Through Love. I really want to love Laura Markham, but she grates on my nerves.
Oh my goodness, I’m not even done with this episode and I feel like I’ve had three therapy sessions. This is so helpful. My kid is seven and I went hard in on all this and took on all the guilt trips. I was recently diagnosed with OCD which was so helpful - my OCD manifests in concerns around being good or moral, and you can imagine how some of this mama content was fuel for that. (To be clear, my brain has challenges with this stuff anyway, and OCD is great at taking external things and running with them - not blaming these influencers for my OCD.) I could not set boundaries because the attachment stuff would loop in my brain about how bad it would be for my kid. I like Einzig and Lansbury more, but their scripts never worked well for my family. Part of my recovery work in OCD is challenging all the things I had compulsions to do to be “good,” and parenting is the big piece I’m focused on right now, so I kind of mean it when I say this is therapy to hear you two talk so critically and plainly about the pitfalls of these approaches. (Plus you both are funny!) thank you.
I would love some time if you guys would reach out to one of these people for comment—or otherwise actually include them in the conversation. It seems like that might be helpful in this conversation? As someone with an online presence myself, if one of my posts was used this way in a conversation I’d love the chance to be involved in talking about it. And it might be a way to get at more of the issues at okay here, especially since many of these people you mentioned today are very credentialed. (I don’t disagree with your commentary, just I’ve had this thought each time you two have chatted and thought I’d mention it.)
I love how you and your guests always show me that I don’t know what I don’t know. Why wouldn’t gentle parenting be the way to go? Oh, here are some reasons. No guilt, no shame, just information and ways to further explore.
I haven't finished listening but I was laughing at the description of Virginia's daughter's reaction to the gentle parenting scripts because it reminded me of my then 12 year old daughter's reaction to my husband trying to use reflective listening techniques. "I know what I said. I don't need you to repeat it. I need you to respond."
On Instagram @mommacusses is up my alley. She uses gentle parenting in a way that allows for her to set boundaries and be herself (a woman not immediately inclined towards “gentle” anything; like me and so many others) and reinforces it’s more about responsiveness than it permissiveness. Thanks for this discussion!
One thing that gentle parenting and diet culture have in common is that it always feel like “it” - whether “it” is a tantrum, a kid who won’t listen, or me finally yelling after trying SO HARD SO MANY times to be kind but firm about something nonnegotiable like brushing teeth (this also comes after trying very hard to be kind but firm about everything else that humans need to do to function. Like, if we don’t leave the house, I will lose my job, which we need in order to continue living indoors…) - is my fault. I didn’t do it right. My tone wasn’t right. I wasn’t close enough to guide my child physically (maybe because I have more than one kid? Or because of the dishes aren’t done it’s going to be real hard to cook and serve the next meal? Or because there is no magic fairy who is going to come do the chores that are also pretty essential to keeping things running?).
I hate hearing that my kids’ reactions is “dictated” by my tone and affect. Like, my kids are now five and eight years old. Surely they have some agency by now? And also, they have many opportunities to put on their shoes after I tell them to in a nice voice? Why isn’t it ever their responsibility that they choose to ignore nice/firm voice?
Also, I am a human being with feelings. I cannot stay calm and unruffled while people are screaming at me, hitting/kicking/pinching me, hitting/kicking/pinching each other, or some combination of those things. I am self regulating so hard just to get through the moment.
Diet culture is the same way. Whatever happens or doesn’t happen with our weight, is because we didn’t follow the rules the right way, weren’t consistent enough, missed some nuance, followed the wrong guru, etc. There is never any acknowledgement that factors beyond our control might have a significant impact. It’s all our fault, always, no exceptions.
Ugh. I have so many feelings about this, and I’m so glad you wrote about it. Usually, what I need most in my parenting is for someone to tell me that it’s not my fault. And telling me that my emotional state is the cause for all my kids’ difficult behaviors and feelings is pretty telling me that it’s all my fault, all the time.
This one was SO good to read. I've had so many of these thoughts about these parenting practices but never fully articulated them, so thanks for wading through all of it.
I’ve been mulling over this topic all week. While I’m tempted to jump into a detailed discussion of parenting styles, there’s really just one thing I want to add to the conversation: Parenting in our culture is really freaking hard. Kids are still-developing humans who are dependent on adults for a very long time. It’s not that their needs are invalid or too much. It’s that they’re too much for parents alone to meet--all day, every day, for a couple of decades--while also doing all of the adulting. No one’s full humanity is being honored. We have a systemic problem, and we need community and structural support for children AND parents AND literally every human.
I just wanna say that I really appreciate that you always have transcripts for us. I know that's extra work, but I don't have the capacity right now to listen to another podcast and I do read the transcripts most of the time. So, thanks :)
I love Burnt Toast, love Sara’s work, but the New Yorker piece you’re talking about today had some major problems with definitions and the different philosophies covered. Einzig and Lansbury would never call themselves “gentle parenting” people—that vein of philosophy is respectful parenting (also called authoritative parenting), which is super, super different from gentle/attachment parenting. The Milk Giver/holier than thou/lactivist etc. stuff is far from respectful parenting, and I was pretty frustrated with how that Winter piece elided it all. Both respectful parenting and gentle parenting are responses to authoritarian/punitive stuff, but they differ enormously—respectful parenting supports sleep training (including extinction “cry it out”) and other practices that enable parents to be whole people, while “gentle” parenting is the stuff that says you have to sacrifice every comfort and need to ensure that your child never cries. I would just love to have a longer conversation distinguishing Lansbury and Visible Child from the morass of Kellymom and Insta lactivists!
I had so many thoughts going through this, but the part about how kids can see through the condescension of "I'm calmly picking apart your rage rather than acknowledging it in an emotional way" is so real to me as a person who above all cannot stand being condescended to. And I will say, the parents in my kid's pod last year who took that kind of tone with the kids were the ones my kid had the worst relationship with. Like, the one who addresses the kids as "friends" and has a long list of therapy recommendations at the ready? He will have nothing to do with.
But one of the interesting things was another of the sets of parents who had clearly read the books and they were really good, I thought, at selling the message "I hear your emotions but I am setting a calm, loving boundary." Only they eventually discovered that their kid responds well to being spoken to sharply. That the step after the calm loving boundary should, with him, be something more like a real rebuke. It was so interesting because they were the parents who I felt had sort of effectively modeled what many of the parenting advice books called for, and then they were like nope, gotta add another step. (When I say their kid responds well to it ... it's like when they're speaking to him in the calm way, he feels really compelled to try to argue his case through escalating sobs, hyperventilating and stammering and frantically trying to communicate, and when they speak more sharply he seems to kind of go oh, ok, I can just relax now, and he doesn't look cowed, he looks relieved, like I can feel my feelings without trying to prove I'm right.)
Really enjoyed this. Something I think about a lot, as someone who was raised in a religious family with authoritarian parenting, corporal punishment, etc. is: no one actually knows how to raise humans “ideally,” right? We have this idea that if we parent just right, our kids will grow up to have wonderful, uncomplicated relationships with us, nothing to work out in therapy, will always make good choices, and that’s just not how this works.
I appreciate some of the gentle parenting stuff for giving me different ways to think about and approach a situation than what I was raised with, because there are plenty of things my parents “solved” by hitting, and that’s not what I’m about. So tips on deescalating a conflict, getting to the bottom of big feelings, solving the problem underlying the behavior is useful. But I definitely do think it’s predicated on this anxiety and perfectionism and undercuts our confidence in how we know our own children. It’s one more way that parents (and particularly mothers) can feel like they aren’t enough: patient enough, creative enough, empathetic enough, present enough… but I know my kid. Sometimes he needs a hug and help talking through his feelings. And sometimes my attention is fuel on the fire and it’s time for a break in his room. I’m his parent; I’ve known him his whole life; I can make this calls better than a scoldy gentle parenting meme on Instagram.
So much appreciation for this conversation. I just listened to Sounds Like a Cult’s episode on Instagram therapists and I’m a longtime listener of Maintenance Phase and it’s been so fascinating to me how much overlap there is between what you are all saying in these pieces about social media, and media in general, around #wellness.
I’m a licensed therapist, a parent, my wife is a pediatrician and I still get sucked innnnn sometimes. It’s super helpful to have this kind of discussion to remind me to do some better critical thinking, listen to my gut, and investigate the sources. The line between helpful resource and misinformation gets so incredibly slippery!
I am really appreciative of your exploration of this topic. I feel like the whole obsession with gentle parenting took me in a really difficult direction. I found Dr Becky and the messaging felt so right to me so I committed myself to using the scripts. However, I never saw the promised outcomes and instead constantly felt resentful of putting myself and my needs behind everyone else. It actually took some solid therapy sessions to work through what was going on (it was taking a major toll on my mental health). About a week ago I saw that Washington Post article and had an aha! moment that maybe it wasn't a defect in me or my children. So much of it seems to fit with what I'm trying to do with our anti diet house and raising intuitive eaters but yet, something's falling short. Would love to keep this conversation going.
I almost cried listening to this. I have what is (kindly) described as a “spirited” child. I follow all these gentle parenting accounts and just keep feeling like something must be seriously wrong with me/my daughter because none of these scripts or tips ever work. They’ve also just never felt right, and you guys explained the reasons why so perfectly. I feel like gentle parenting is the libertarianism of parenting philosophy. In an ideal world where we have endless patience and resources at our disposal, maybe this would work? But probably not because parents are also people with emotions and frustrations, which tbh shouldn’t be seen as a bad thing or something we need to hide from our children. Thank you so much for the work you do!
Friends, this is going to be a touch long.
I completely agree with the way a lot of gentle parenting 'coaches' have taken the gentle part to a degree that is unsustainable in real life situations. I also tried to get on board with Janet Lansbury when my oldest was a toddler, and her thing is to "remain unruffled" in the face of tantrums and general ass-hattery of the toddlerdom. And, I remember screaming "I'm feeling very ruffled" as I lost my bananas over a particularly bad fit from my 3 y/o. Also, agree that the scripts tend to be BS. When my oldest said to me that my voice sounds nice but my face looks angry, I knew I was doing it wrong.
HOWEVER, once I reframed the the idea from gentle parenting to compassionate parenting, and really internalized that my strong willed children's behavior is not a REFLECTION ON ME, it started to make sense. My 9 y/o describes my family as 'yell-y', so OBVIOUSLY I still yell. But, once, I'm able to reset, I make a point of coming back to my small person to apologize/process where things went sideways to repair. I also try to help the older ones (my 2 y/o isn't ready) learn how to recognize when they need connection, and then ASK for special time/hug/a few minutes to talk about or process something, rather than throwing their shoes at the lamp while I'm cooking dinner. And sometimes, that looks like my saying (yelling) "What do you need right now?" instead of "What is wrong with you?"
Also, I have 3 girls, and I would like to mention that most parenting coaches/ writers for this style only have 1 kid or maybe 2 very chill kids. DON'T FREAKING TELL ME HOW TO BE PATIENT WHEN I'VE BEEN SLEEP DEPRIVED FOR 10 YEARS, LADY. Basically use what works, and leave what doesn't. Some non-pretentious recommendations are Hand to Hand Parenting and Lori Petro/Teach Through Love. I really want to love Laura Markham, but she grates on my nerves.
Oh my goodness, I’m not even done with this episode and I feel like I’ve had three therapy sessions. This is so helpful. My kid is seven and I went hard in on all this and took on all the guilt trips. I was recently diagnosed with OCD which was so helpful - my OCD manifests in concerns around being good or moral, and you can imagine how some of this mama content was fuel for that. (To be clear, my brain has challenges with this stuff anyway, and OCD is great at taking external things and running with them - not blaming these influencers for my OCD.) I could not set boundaries because the attachment stuff would loop in my brain about how bad it would be for my kid. I like Einzig and Lansbury more, but their scripts never worked well for my family. Part of my recovery work in OCD is challenging all the things I had compulsions to do to be “good,” and parenting is the big piece I’m focused on right now, so I kind of mean it when I say this is therapy to hear you two talk so critically and plainly about the pitfalls of these approaches. (Plus you both are funny!) thank you.
I would love some time if you guys would reach out to one of these people for comment—or otherwise actually include them in the conversation. It seems like that might be helpful in this conversation? As someone with an online presence myself, if one of my posts was used this way in a conversation I’d love the chance to be involved in talking about it. And it might be a way to get at more of the issues at okay here, especially since many of these people you mentioned today are very credentialed. (I don’t disagree with your commentary, just I’ve had this thought each time you two have chatted and thought I’d mention it.)
I love how you and your guests always show me that I don’t know what I don’t know. Why wouldn’t gentle parenting be the way to go? Oh, here are some reasons. No guilt, no shame, just information and ways to further explore.
I haven't finished listening but I was laughing at the description of Virginia's daughter's reaction to the gentle parenting scripts because it reminded me of my then 12 year old daughter's reaction to my husband trying to use reflective listening techniques. "I know what I said. I don't need you to repeat it. I need you to respond."
On Instagram @mommacusses is up my alley. She uses gentle parenting in a way that allows for her to set boundaries and be herself (a woman not immediately inclined towards “gentle” anything; like me and so many others) and reinforces it’s more about responsiveness than it permissiveness. Thanks for this discussion!
One thing that gentle parenting and diet culture have in common is that it always feel like “it” - whether “it” is a tantrum, a kid who won’t listen, or me finally yelling after trying SO HARD SO MANY times to be kind but firm about something nonnegotiable like brushing teeth (this also comes after trying very hard to be kind but firm about everything else that humans need to do to function. Like, if we don’t leave the house, I will lose my job, which we need in order to continue living indoors…) - is my fault. I didn’t do it right. My tone wasn’t right. I wasn’t close enough to guide my child physically (maybe because I have more than one kid? Or because of the dishes aren’t done it’s going to be real hard to cook and serve the next meal? Or because there is no magic fairy who is going to come do the chores that are also pretty essential to keeping things running?).
I hate hearing that my kids’ reactions is “dictated” by my tone and affect. Like, my kids are now five and eight years old. Surely they have some agency by now? And also, they have many opportunities to put on their shoes after I tell them to in a nice voice? Why isn’t it ever their responsibility that they choose to ignore nice/firm voice?
Also, I am a human being with feelings. I cannot stay calm and unruffled while people are screaming at me, hitting/kicking/pinching me, hitting/kicking/pinching each other, or some combination of those things. I am self regulating so hard just to get through the moment.
Diet culture is the same way. Whatever happens or doesn’t happen with our weight, is because we didn’t follow the rules the right way, weren’t consistent enough, missed some nuance, followed the wrong guru, etc. There is never any acknowledgement that factors beyond our control might have a significant impact. It’s all our fault, always, no exceptions.
Ugh. I have so many feelings about this, and I’m so glad you wrote about it. Usually, what I need most in my parenting is for someone to tell me that it’s not my fault. And telling me that my emotional state is the cause for all my kids’ difficult behaviors and feelings is pretty telling me that it’s all my fault, all the time.
This one was SO good to read. I've had so many of these thoughts about these parenting practices but never fully articulated them, so thanks for wading through all of it.
I’ve been mulling over this topic all week. While I’m tempted to jump into a detailed discussion of parenting styles, there’s really just one thing I want to add to the conversation: Parenting in our culture is really freaking hard. Kids are still-developing humans who are dependent on adults for a very long time. It’s not that their needs are invalid or too much. It’s that they’re too much for parents alone to meet--all day, every day, for a couple of decades--while also doing all of the adulting. No one’s full humanity is being honored. We have a systemic problem, and we need community and structural support for children AND parents AND literally every human.