Thank you for this interview. I'm not a parent, but I'm someone who was involved in the theater world in college, as a stage manager, and as a teacher. I love this interview so much. I took stock of my time in the theater and this is what I found (grab a snack, I tend to be wordy):
I was involved in theater in high school, as was a friend who would probably have been considered a large fat at that time. I was probably a small fat. I'm not sure how, but our directors always found us costumes. We did Guys and Dolls, and they found mission uniforms for us that were just like everyone else's. Sometime things were a little tight, but there was never an issue. I did notice, however, that in Guys and Dolls, I was cast as a mission worker, not a Hot Box girl. In the Wizard of Oz, I was a crow and a flying money, not an Ozian or Jitterbug. Sneaky little ways that reinforced I wasn't pretty or skinny enough to be those people. I turned to stage management junior year.
In college, my roommate my senior year is tall (6 ft) girl, big, beautiful (but not conventionally pretty), and talented as anyone. But she got cast as the mom, the comic relief, the sidekick. I was so mad on her behalf, but when I cast my student project show, I cast her as the older women (it was a decent role, but nothing she hadn't done before). One of the most joyous things I remember is her playing Mother Superior in Nunsense 2 as well as another large actress playing Sister Mary Hubert (number 2). They were hysterical, but they were in roles that aren't supposed to be sexy, attractive, desirable.
My roommate graduate from college in 2006. She is now blowing up the theatre scene in Milwaukee, WI because of how awesomely talented she is. She now has directors picking shows to do because they want her to play the lead role, they want her in the project and if she won't do it, they won't do it. They are picking plays FOR her. She played the Kathy Bates role in Misery. She was amazing as Ms.Trunchbull in Matilda. She got naked in a production of Hair. And yet...she's only the lead when it's okay for a fat girl to be the lead.
I was a high school teacher for six years and directed a number of plays. I was just out of college with my English and theater education degrees, and I had worked with a hard-ass, somewhat old- school director in college. Even though it was more than 10 years ago, I still regret not bucking the norms and casting the fat girl as the lead or some other juicy role rather than the maid or the mother. My training had told me to find people who "look the part" and growing up in the culture we have, I cast the skinny, pretty girls (and whatever boys I could find--theater teachers, amirite?) I regret that a lot, and some other behavior in the theatre that was harmful, but I didn't do anything about it. (Cliques and stuff like that.)
I virtually directed a high school show in the spring of 2021 (COVID and all). I directed Davis Ives' All in the Timing--six short one acts. In the first one, a woman is reading at a table in a cafe and a man asks to sit with her with the intention of chatting her up. I had about 10 kids auditions, and one of them was a bigger girl who I'd met a few years ago while working on a different show. I was excited to see she was still in the theater, and without a doubt in my mind, cast her as the woman in the cafe. A stranger--who only knows what this woman looks like--is going to approach a fat woman with the intent to chat her up. She was phenomenal.
Katy, I also saw you in Into the Woods, and you were so great. I said to my kids on the way out that I especially loved Little Red. We are all major Into the Woods aficionados and have seen many productions of it, and what you brought to Little Red is exactly what I wanted her to be. I got a little nervous when I saw they were going to have you stuff muffins into your face onstage, but it didn’t at all come across like the audience was supposed to laugh at a fat joke, which is what I was afraid of. I guess that’s that armor in action, that you speak of.
i also love “I will stop phrasing it that way when they stop casting it that way.” Soooo often, when those of us in larger bodies call out what gets said and done to us, other people are like, “noooo you can’t say that about yourself” and it’s like this horrible hybrid of toxic positivity and the shitty trope that fat people have low self-esteem and that’s what’s at play there. So not only do we have to deal with all the anti-fatness in the world, but we also have to not talk about it? Or else people will think we have low self-esteem? Ugh. Let’s normalize naming it!
Oh, the joys of children singing Matilda at the top of their lungs! My 8 year old sang “Naughty” and “Revolting Children” at theater camp this summer and it’s such a delight when he belts them out, British accent and all. And yay for letting kids run around together on vacation! We do vacation with my sister every year and the cousins love having their own little shared world together.
Yes! I'm going to remember "do you need a teammate or do you need me to yell at people for you?" for so many situations. (Parenting, friendship, work...)
Such a brilliant and thorough convo! I gobbled this episode up. Katy's reflection on how her casting changed the timbre of audience laughter was extremely telling and fascinating.
I remember welling up when I saw Carrie Hope Fletcher, a plus sized musical theatre actress, play Eponine and Veronica in Heathers (both romantic leads). Seeing fat people fall in love and lead courageous lives in any media is wonderful. But there's something about a live, in-the-flesh performance which hits me differently.
As a mom to two theater kids, this is SO useful. Thank you and I can't wait to listen with my kids, especially since once is in an Into the Woods Jr show right now.
I'm so behind on my substacks, but just wanted to say I recently tried Noteworthy and I am LOVING the way they package their scents. I took a little quiz and got samples and everyone tells me I smell good all the time now.
Several comments, sort of related:
Thank you for this interview. I'm not a parent, but I'm someone who was involved in the theater world in college, as a stage manager, and as a teacher. I love this interview so much. I took stock of my time in the theater and this is what I found (grab a snack, I tend to be wordy):
I was involved in theater in high school, as was a friend who would probably have been considered a large fat at that time. I was probably a small fat. I'm not sure how, but our directors always found us costumes. We did Guys and Dolls, and they found mission uniforms for us that were just like everyone else's. Sometime things were a little tight, but there was never an issue. I did notice, however, that in Guys and Dolls, I was cast as a mission worker, not a Hot Box girl. In the Wizard of Oz, I was a crow and a flying money, not an Ozian or Jitterbug. Sneaky little ways that reinforced I wasn't pretty or skinny enough to be those people. I turned to stage management junior year.
In college, my roommate my senior year is tall (6 ft) girl, big, beautiful (but not conventionally pretty), and talented as anyone. But she got cast as the mom, the comic relief, the sidekick. I was so mad on her behalf, but when I cast my student project show, I cast her as the older women (it was a decent role, but nothing she hadn't done before). One of the most joyous things I remember is her playing Mother Superior in Nunsense 2 as well as another large actress playing Sister Mary Hubert (number 2). They were hysterical, but they were in roles that aren't supposed to be sexy, attractive, desirable.
My roommate graduate from college in 2006. She is now blowing up the theatre scene in Milwaukee, WI because of how awesomely talented she is. She now has directors picking shows to do because they want her to play the lead role, they want her in the project and if she won't do it, they won't do it. They are picking plays FOR her. She played the Kathy Bates role in Misery. She was amazing as Ms.Trunchbull in Matilda. She got naked in a production of Hair. And yet...she's only the lead when it's okay for a fat girl to be the lead.
I was a high school teacher for six years and directed a number of plays. I was just out of college with my English and theater education degrees, and I had worked with a hard-ass, somewhat old- school director in college. Even though it was more than 10 years ago, I still regret not bucking the norms and casting the fat girl as the lead or some other juicy role rather than the maid or the mother. My training had told me to find people who "look the part" and growing up in the culture we have, I cast the skinny, pretty girls (and whatever boys I could find--theater teachers, amirite?) I regret that a lot, and some other behavior in the theatre that was harmful, but I didn't do anything about it. (Cliques and stuff like that.)
I virtually directed a high school show in the spring of 2021 (COVID and all). I directed Davis Ives' All in the Timing--six short one acts. In the first one, a woman is reading at a table in a cafe and a man asks to sit with her with the intention of chatting her up. I had about 10 kids auditions, and one of them was a bigger girl who I'd met a few years ago while working on a different show. I was excited to see she was still in the theater, and without a doubt in my mind, cast her as the woman in the cafe. A stranger--who only knows what this woman looks like--is going to approach a fat woman with the intent to chat her up. She was phenomenal.
Baby steps...
Love hearing about this journey, thanks for sharing!
Katy, I also saw you in Into the Woods, and you were so great. I said to my kids on the way out that I especially loved Little Red. We are all major Into the Woods aficionados and have seen many productions of it, and what you brought to Little Red is exactly what I wanted her to be. I got a little nervous when I saw they were going to have you stuff muffins into your face onstage, but it didn’t at all come across like the audience was supposed to laugh at a fat joke, which is what I was afraid of. I guess that’s that armor in action, that you speak of.
i also love “I will stop phrasing it that way when they stop casting it that way.” Soooo often, when those of us in larger bodies call out what gets said and done to us, other people are like, “noooo you can’t say that about yourself” and it’s like this horrible hybrid of toxic positivity and the shitty trope that fat people have low self-esteem and that’s what’s at play there. So not only do we have to deal with all the anti-fatness in the world, but we also have to not talk about it? Or else people will think we have low self-esteem? Ugh. Let’s normalize naming it!
Oh, the joys of children singing Matilda at the top of their lungs! My 8 year old sang “Naughty” and “Revolting Children” at theater camp this summer and it’s such a delight when he belts them out, British accent and all. And yay for letting kids run around together on vacation! We do vacation with my sister every year and the cousins love having their own little shared world together.
Yes to all of this, especially let's normalize naming it!!
This was great! So many actually concrete, useful tips for combating anti-fatness in theater but also just in everyday life.
Yes! I'm going to remember "do you need a teammate or do you need me to yell at people for you?" for so many situations. (Parenting, friendship, work...)
Katy, I saw you in Into the
Woods- you were amazing! I hope to see you in more shows! You really lit up the stage!
Such a brilliant and thorough convo! I gobbled this episode up. Katy's reflection on how her casting changed the timbre of audience laughter was extremely telling and fascinating.
I remember welling up when I saw Carrie Hope Fletcher, a plus sized musical theatre actress, play Eponine and Veronica in Heathers (both romantic leads). Seeing fat people fall in love and lead courageous lives in any media is wonderful. But there's something about a live, in-the-flesh performance which hits me differently.
As a mom to two theater kids, this is SO useful. Thank you and I can't wait to listen with my kids, especially since once is in an Into the Woods Jr show right now.
Yay!
Great interview! Thanks to both of you!
I'm so behind on my substacks, but just wanted to say I recently tried Noteworthy and I am LOVING the way they package their scents. I took a little quiz and got samples and everyone tells me I smell good all the time now.
What an important conversation! I loved this interview.