Great episode…I am presenting today at a conference and wearing a Svaha dragon dress - I needed the boost of confidence from this episode today to proudly walk in with my fat body…love you! (And ordering housemates book too! ) 🙏🏽💛
My husband's first job after staying home with our daughter was at a pop-up American Girl store, where he worked in the salon doing doll hair and ear piercing. As a result, he can do allll of the fancy hairstyles, including a fishtail braid. I believe it's just a matter of going UNDER with the braid, rather than OVER (I couldn't see how he did it, because he was doing it on my head), but I can attest that it does not involve hairspray.
I love Monty don and I especially loved his “big dreams, small spaces” series that used to be on Netflix! It was nice to see tiny places turned into cool gardens. Monty Don also has great style!!
SUCH GOOD STYLE. (Apparently he was a posh jewelry designer before he became a gardener/TV host so I guess this tracks. Also British style is default good.)
I second this! He also has a tv series of beautiful gardens in Italy, France and even the US. When I was last in Europe traveling with my four sisters (many moons ago), we made a pilgrimage to some of the ones he visited and danced around the fountains! I also recommend his IG for dog content 🧡
I feel Emma on not wanting to display big boobs all the time (no more v-necks!). And on embracing frump colours like chartreuse - it really pops for me!
It's a complicated topic. I won't claim that I'm not curious about Virginia's thoughts, but I think talking about animals might be too far out of the scope of this publication, unless its to genuinely deep dive into why talking about animal weight is a very complicated topic. The amount of food an animal eats based on its age and environment is a fluctuating thing. How and why we anthropomorphize animals is a fluctuating thing. What we know about animal health, husbandry, and welfare is a fluctuating thing. Pet food as it exists as a commodity under capitalism is a fluctuating thing. Like, it's a lot. And ultimately, animals cannot speak for themselves. We can guess at what's right, but the topic is additionally fraught because animals have no agency in these systems.
Agree, it's super complicated and a lot of this is outside the scope of BT, though if I were still doing hardcore science reporting, I'd be interested in digging in. The piece that IS within our scope is the fact that the vet becomes a place where many fat owners are also judged and stigmatized. There are assumptions we must feed our pets wrong, not let them get enough exercise, etc, etc. I also think it's fair game to call out the anti-fatness of a lot of pet food marketing. There must be ways to discuss the "healthy weight" concept for animals without triggering the same old fat jokes and shaming we encounter in so many other places.
As a veterinarian I can say there is good data suggesting being above a healthy body condition ( weight isn’t useful in dogs, we use body condition scoring which scores the animal 1-9/9 based on the amount of subcutaneous fat visible)has a significant effect on a dog’s lifespan. This is easier to study than in people because dogs have a shorter lifespan, and fewer outside variables to consider ( dogs don’t smoke,drink, etc).
The effect varies based on the breed ( they have done studies on 12 breeds)but is statistically significant, more so for smaller breeds like Yorkies. The effect is estimated to be between 2.5 years ( yorkies) and 5 months ( German Shepherds) .It’s also a significant risk factor in terms of orthopedic disease especially tears of the cruciate ligament, a crucial knee structure.
Dogs , and cats too also evolved as carnivores who are gorge eaters. They kill prey, eat until they can’t hold anymore, repeat until the prey is gone, then it takes a while to get more prey. For this reason a lots of carnivores don’t seem to have an “off” switch for appetite based on satiety/metabolism. In Labrador retrievers there is actually a gene they have isolated that causes insatiable appetite in 25% of Labradors. It hasn’t been isolated in other breeds yet but may exist. A significant percentage of dogs will eat to the point of vomiting/illness if given unrestricted access to food. The majority of dogs can’t eat “intuitively” the way hunter gatherer people can. Their intuition says “eat it ALL!” All the time.
I am a huge believer in bodily autonomy and acceptance of all people…. But dogs can’t look at the data and make a critical decision for themselves. So personally as a veterinarian I think I need to err on the side of protecting the dog from anything that could potentially harm them. There is good evidence that it’s necessary to restrict access to food for domestic pets .
I’ve been a practicing vet for quite some time and I’ve definitely changed the way I speak to owners about their pets’ weight. At this point in time I don’t really treat it as an issue at all and focus more on quality of life in general. So many pets have pain or are under stimulated or are fearful and those issues need to be treated appropriately and not just with weight loss.
In fact, when a patient of mine loses weight it’s usually because something bad is brewing.
I'd be interested in the human-facing side of fatness intersecting with pets and animals (and how sexism and racism compound those issues.) I just don't want to see shallow takes like "putting your dog on any diet is fatphobic" when animal health and welfare is immensly nuanced. My apologies if my comment made it seem like I was against you talking about animals in any context. The natural world is very gatekept from fat people and I do enjoy topics where fat liberation intersects with animals and the outdoors.
I do hope you dive into it and also understand it's a challenging topic. I'm still salty about a vet experience. I brought my cat in because he lost a lot of weight rapidly (like 2.5 lbs on a 13.5 lb body) and that can of course be a sign of a problem in animals of any age, but is particularly a thing we pet parents are told to watch out for in seniors (which my guy is).
The vet actually opened by saying "well he's lost a lot of weight since your last visit - which could be a good thing" and if she hadn't immediately followed with "I'm going to run a senior panel to see what we find" I would've exploded. Especially since that 13.5 lbs was a weight that was in proportion to his body size, and had never been raised as an area of concern with previous vets (this one was new to the practice and had replaced my previous vet). But even if 13.5 lbs was considered "too heavy," an unexplained and rapid weight loss in a 15 year old cat is A BAD THING, lady!
(He's still hanging in there. This was about a year ago, likely cause was inflammatory bowel disease, and a course of steroids calmed the inflammation enough that he was able to put on weight again and is generally still spry in his golden years).
I have so many spiraling thoughts about dogs and their weight and food. Our experience with a dog with mild hip dysplasia. Using only positive reinforcement (treat) training to train. Thinking about what my dog actually likes to eat. Adopting a street dog who can and does eat anything. How would they eat without us? Thoughts about food in “enrichment” activities. (And why don’t we do human food enrichment? Would it make it even more enjoyable for us, too, or is the underlying goal just to slow food down?) Convenience for us in what we choose to feed. What foods I’m willing to touch for them. What cost I’m willing to put out for them. What risks I’m willing to take with my carpets. The cuddliness of a dog with higher body fat versus lower body fat. The dog bowl with big channels we own to stop our stray rescue from choking on her food from eating too fast. The how much I’d hate that.
This was such a great convo, I thoroughly enjoyed it!! Definitely leaning into my frump in my 50’s, I just don’t care as much anymore, I think that’s why my therapist refers the it as the fuck it 50’s! I also feel like the pandemic accelerated my dressing just for me era, being home and not worrying as much about anyone’s gaze allowed for leaning much more into comfort and what I enjoy more than trying to fit into a specific trend. I also appreciated the discussion around becoming less noticed as we age, as a mom, as a fat person and it made me think of that amazing monologue by Kristen Scott Thomas on Fleabag about menopause, and as someone going through it, it’s yet another change in our lives that really reshapes us.
“Women are born with pain built in. It’s our physical destiny—period pains, sore boobs, childbirth, you know. We carry it within ourselves throughout our lives. Men don’t. They have to seek it out. They invent all these gods and demons so they can feel guilty about things, which is something we do very well on our own. And then they create wars so they can feel things and touch each other and when there aren’t any wars they can play rugby. We have it all going on in here, inside. We have pain on a cycle for years and years and years, and then just when you feel you are making peace with it all, what happens? The menopause comes. The fucking menopause comes and it is the most wonderful fucking thing in the world. Yes, your entire pelvic floor crumbles and you get fucking hot and no one cares, but then you’re free. No longer a slave, no longer a machine with parts. You’re just a person. In business.”
This episode made me ever more excited about Housemates. I've been waiting for weeks to order it. Soon as pub date arrived I ordered from my neighborhood bookstore, Solid State Books in Washington, DC (which happens to be half block from my home so dangerous). Thank you for this episode. Loved hearing about the Frump style, the Butter dogs and garden shows (Britbox is my friend). Keep these interviews coming. Both fun and inspirational.
I still remember being 14 years old, just starting to get boobs (and boy did I get them), and trying on a fitted top for the first time to go to my first high school dance. I did NOT want to grow up and this was such a weird, uncomfortable step for me. And then again when I was 19 and studying abroad in Spain and having to buy “going out” tops because my clothes were all so loose. In 2000, Spanish fashion was ALL about Lycra.
Im so happy to be embracing my own frump again. I do wonder if people realize it’s intentional. I guess I need to turn it up a bit 😄
I'm an Extra Butter subscriber (for what it's worth!) and I'm very interested in the way human fatphobia plays out in animals. It's like - on the one hand, our pets don't have any agency in what or how they're fed, and I can see the way people treat their pets like humans can lead to feeding them too much or the wrong things, and the way I hear vets and animal behaviorists talk about extra weight leading to extra wear and tear on joints, or kidney problems, or breathing issues (depending on the age/breed/type of animal) makes sense, and being more mindful about what and how much pets are being fed could be helpful - but on the other hand it still sounds a lot like the garbage fat humans hear from providers in medical settings. And yet on the third hand (can I borrow a hand?) animals aren't prone to eating disorders or body dysmorphia or yo-yo dieting. Is excess weight in animals really a problem, or is it something invented by fatphobic society, or could both things be true? Surely somebody's written their PhD dissertation on this issue, right?
And then there are people like me who just don't have any fashion sense nor do I have the will to study and learn what is stylish. And I feel like the clothes I wear would be perceived as looking very nice on a thin person. One of my best friends is very skinny and all she wears is tank tops with racerback bras and cargo capris with no-name flip flops. I often think that if we were waiting to get into an exclusive clothing store, she would get in and I would not even if I were wearing the exact same thing that she was.
Your discussion about being taken seriously as having made a fashion choice still feels like "good fatty" energy. Fat people should be able to roll out of bed and slap on a T-shirt just like skinny people and be taken seriously as human beings.
Aw man sad I had to join the convo a day late but had to express my intense enthusiasm regarding the topic of frump as Fashion/a deliberate Aesthetic. I saw this traveling outside the US and it was so sincerely pleasing to see. Would love to find a deep dive from maybe a cultural anthropologist to see how this trend possibly ties into the pandemic and the entire world prioritizing comfort and just doing what we all could to get through it all. You’re always giving me more food for thought!
Great episode…I am presenting today at a conference and wearing a Svaha dragon dress - I needed the boost of confidence from this episode today to proudly walk in with my fat body…love you! (And ordering housemates book too! ) 🙏🏽💛
thank you so much!
That dress is FIRE, you got this!
It went fab!!!!!
Thanks Virginia!
Terrific conversation- thank you! And that hair book - oooooh, that took me back. Never mastered the fishtail braid but studied that book hard.
I feel like the secret to a fishtail braid must be lots and lots of hairspray and nobody ever talked about that part!
My husband's first job after staying home with our daughter was at a pop-up American Girl store, where he worked in the salon doing doll hair and ear piercing. As a result, he can do allll of the fancy hairstyles, including a fishtail braid. I believe it's just a matter of going UNDER with the braid, rather than OVER (I couldn't see how he did it, because he was doing it on my head), but I can attest that it does not involve hairspray.
I also tried SO hard
Fuck yes Monty Don! There is no comfort watch like Gardeners World.
I love Monty don and I especially loved his “big dreams, small spaces” series that used to be on Netflix! It was nice to see tiny places turned into cool gardens. Monty Don also has great style!!
SUCH GOOD STYLE. (Apparently he was a posh jewelry designer before he became a gardener/TV host so I guess this tracks. Also British style is default good.)
ooooh now I want to see his jewelry!
I second this! He also has a tv series of beautiful gardens in Italy, France and even the US. When I was last in Europe traveling with my four sisters (many moons ago), we made a pilgrimage to some of the ones he visited and danced around the fountains! I also recommend his IG for dog content 🧡
I feel Emma on not wanting to display big boobs all the time (no more v-necks!). And on embracing frump colours like chartreuse - it really pops for me!
LOVE a pop of frump color. And why do v-necks always dip SO LOW.
And yes! Can we please discuss fat shaming dogs. Ugh! What is up with this?
It's a complicated topic. I won't claim that I'm not curious about Virginia's thoughts, but I think talking about animals might be too far out of the scope of this publication, unless its to genuinely deep dive into why talking about animal weight is a very complicated topic. The amount of food an animal eats based on its age and environment is a fluctuating thing. How and why we anthropomorphize animals is a fluctuating thing. What we know about animal health, husbandry, and welfare is a fluctuating thing. Pet food as it exists as a commodity under capitalism is a fluctuating thing. Like, it's a lot. And ultimately, animals cannot speak for themselves. We can guess at what's right, but the topic is additionally fraught because animals have no agency in these systems.
Agree, it's super complicated and a lot of this is outside the scope of BT, though if I were still doing hardcore science reporting, I'd be interested in digging in. The piece that IS within our scope is the fact that the vet becomes a place where many fat owners are also judged and stigmatized. There are assumptions we must feed our pets wrong, not let them get enough exercise, etc, etc. I also think it's fair game to call out the anti-fatness of a lot of pet food marketing. There must be ways to discuss the "healthy weight" concept for animals without triggering the same old fat jokes and shaming we encounter in so many other places.
As a veterinarian I can say there is good data suggesting being above a healthy body condition ( weight isn’t useful in dogs, we use body condition scoring which scores the animal 1-9/9 based on the amount of subcutaneous fat visible)has a significant effect on a dog’s lifespan. This is easier to study than in people because dogs have a shorter lifespan, and fewer outside variables to consider ( dogs don’t smoke,drink, etc).
The effect varies based on the breed ( they have done studies on 12 breeds)but is statistically significant, more so for smaller breeds like Yorkies. The effect is estimated to be between 2.5 years ( yorkies) and 5 months ( German Shepherds) .It’s also a significant risk factor in terms of orthopedic disease especially tears of the cruciate ligament, a crucial knee structure.
Dogs , and cats too also evolved as carnivores who are gorge eaters. They kill prey, eat until they can’t hold anymore, repeat until the prey is gone, then it takes a while to get more prey. For this reason a lots of carnivores don’t seem to have an “off” switch for appetite based on satiety/metabolism. In Labrador retrievers there is actually a gene they have isolated that causes insatiable appetite in 25% of Labradors. It hasn’t been isolated in other breeds yet but may exist. A significant percentage of dogs will eat to the point of vomiting/illness if given unrestricted access to food. The majority of dogs can’t eat “intuitively” the way hunter gatherer people can. Their intuition says “eat it ALL!” All the time.
I am a huge believer in bodily autonomy and acceptance of all people…. But dogs can’t look at the data and make a critical decision for themselves. So personally as a veterinarian I think I need to err on the side of protecting the dog from anything that could potentially harm them. There is good evidence that it’s necessary to restrict access to food for domestic pets .
I’ve been a practicing vet for quite some time and I’ve definitely changed the way I speak to owners about their pets’ weight. At this point in time I don’t really treat it as an issue at all and focus more on quality of life in general. So many pets have pain or are under stimulated or are fearful and those issues need to be treated appropriately and not just with weight loss.
In fact, when a patient of mine loses weight it’s usually because something bad is brewing.
I'd be interested in the human-facing side of fatness intersecting with pets and animals (and how sexism and racism compound those issues.) I just don't want to see shallow takes like "putting your dog on any diet is fatphobic" when animal health and welfare is immensly nuanced. My apologies if my comment made it seem like I was against you talking about animals in any context. The natural world is very gatekept from fat people and I do enjoy topics where fat liberation intersects with animals and the outdoors.
I do hope you dive into it and also understand it's a challenging topic. I'm still salty about a vet experience. I brought my cat in because he lost a lot of weight rapidly (like 2.5 lbs on a 13.5 lb body) and that can of course be a sign of a problem in animals of any age, but is particularly a thing we pet parents are told to watch out for in seniors (which my guy is).
The vet actually opened by saying "well he's lost a lot of weight since your last visit - which could be a good thing" and if she hadn't immediately followed with "I'm going to run a senior panel to see what we find" I would've exploded. Especially since that 13.5 lbs was a weight that was in proportion to his body size, and had never been raised as an area of concern with previous vets (this one was new to the practice and had replaced my previous vet). But even if 13.5 lbs was considered "too heavy," an unexplained and rapid weight loss in a 15 year old cat is A BAD THING, lady!
(He's still hanging in there. This was about a year ago, likely cause was inflammatory bowel disease, and a course of steroids calmed the inflammation enough that he was able to put on weight again and is generally still spry in his golden years).
Grrrr to that vet. Glad your cat is hanging in.
I have so many spiraling thoughts about dogs and their weight and food. Our experience with a dog with mild hip dysplasia. Using only positive reinforcement (treat) training to train. Thinking about what my dog actually likes to eat. Adopting a street dog who can and does eat anything. How would they eat without us? Thoughts about food in “enrichment” activities. (And why don’t we do human food enrichment? Would it make it even more enjoyable for us, too, or is the underlying goal just to slow food down?) Convenience for us in what we choose to feed. What foods I’m willing to touch for them. What cost I’m willing to put out for them. What risks I’m willing to take with my carpets. The cuddliness of a dog with higher body fat versus lower body fat. The dog bowl with big channels we own to stop our stray rescue from choking on her food from eating too fast. The how much I’d hate that.
This was such a great convo, I thoroughly enjoyed it!! Definitely leaning into my frump in my 50’s, I just don’t care as much anymore, I think that’s why my therapist refers the it as the fuck it 50’s! I also feel like the pandemic accelerated my dressing just for me era, being home and not worrying as much about anyone’s gaze allowed for leaning much more into comfort and what I enjoy more than trying to fit into a specific trend. I also appreciated the discussion around becoming less noticed as we age, as a mom, as a fat person and it made me think of that amazing monologue by Kristen Scott Thomas on Fleabag about menopause, and as someone going through it, it’s yet another change in our lives that really reshapes us.
“Women are born with pain built in. It’s our physical destiny—period pains, sore boobs, childbirth, you know. We carry it within ourselves throughout our lives. Men don’t. They have to seek it out. They invent all these gods and demons so they can feel guilty about things, which is something we do very well on our own. And then they create wars so they can feel things and touch each other and when there aren’t any wars they can play rugby. We have it all going on in here, inside. We have pain on a cycle for years and years and years, and then just when you feel you are making peace with it all, what happens? The menopause comes. The fucking menopause comes and it is the most wonderful fucking thing in the world. Yes, your entire pelvic floor crumbles and you get fucking hot and no one cares, but then you’re free. No longer a slave, no longer a machine with parts. You’re just a person. In business.”
Absolutely loved this conversation. I had that Braids and Bows book!
This episode made me ever more excited about Housemates. I've been waiting for weeks to order it. Soon as pub date arrived I ordered from my neighborhood bookstore, Solid State Books in Washington, DC (which happens to be half block from my home so dangerous). Thank you for this episode. Loved hearing about the Frump style, the Butter dogs and garden shows (Britbox is my friend). Keep these interviews coming. Both fun and inspirational.
thank you so much!
First—thank you for introducing us to Emma, just bought the audiobook and can’t wait to listen.
Second: the frump conversation reminded me of a viral essay from several years ago about Toddler Grandma Style, by Cynara Geissler. Does anyone remember this? Very much in the same vein, I think. https://medium.com/the-establishment/toddler-grandma-style-the-fashion-approach-that-will-set-you-free-92f787202928
yes I remember this article! an inspiration!
I preordered Housemates earlier this week. This was a fantastic conversation. I’m working hard to divest of the male gaze. At 61 years old it’s time.
I may never stop commenting on the Frump thread. But how I can stop when there’s THIS PHOTO OF JUNE SQUIBB??? https://www.instagram.com/p/C8eiLwmxabj/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
You were VERY CORRECT to alert us.
I think this is the third time I'm bringing style icon Auntie Pine from Tumbleleaf into the Burnt Toast extended universe. Auntie Pine is so frump. Ur-frump. Mystical frump. The Frumpen One. https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNzU0YTU5M2MtZDVkMC00MDkwLWJhYTctOGUxZjk1ZWRlYjZiXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNTM3MDMyMDQ@._V1_.jpg
https://simkl.in/episodes/61/6181822c81cf22e0b_w.jpg
THE FRUMPEN ONE.
I still remember being 14 years old, just starting to get boobs (and boy did I get them), and trying on a fitted top for the first time to go to my first high school dance. I did NOT want to grow up and this was such a weird, uncomfortable step for me. And then again when I was 19 and studying abroad in Spain and having to buy “going out” tops because my clothes were all so loose. In 2000, Spanish fashion was ALL about Lycra.
Im so happy to be embracing my own frump again. I do wonder if people realize it’s intentional. I guess I need to turn it up a bit 😄
I'm an Extra Butter subscriber (for what it's worth!) and I'm very interested in the way human fatphobia plays out in animals. It's like - on the one hand, our pets don't have any agency in what or how they're fed, and I can see the way people treat their pets like humans can lead to feeding them too much or the wrong things, and the way I hear vets and animal behaviorists talk about extra weight leading to extra wear and tear on joints, or kidney problems, or breathing issues (depending on the age/breed/type of animal) makes sense, and being more mindful about what and how much pets are being fed could be helpful - but on the other hand it still sounds a lot like the garbage fat humans hear from providers in medical settings. And yet on the third hand (can I borrow a hand?) animals aren't prone to eating disorders or body dysmorphia or yo-yo dieting. Is excess weight in animals really a problem, or is it something invented by fatphobic society, or could both things be true? Surely somebody's written their PhD dissertation on this issue, right?
And then there are people like me who just don't have any fashion sense nor do I have the will to study and learn what is stylish. And I feel like the clothes I wear would be perceived as looking very nice on a thin person. One of my best friends is very skinny and all she wears is tank tops with racerback bras and cargo capris with no-name flip flops. I often think that if we were waiting to get into an exclusive clothing store, she would get in and I would not even if I were wearing the exact same thing that she was.
Your discussion about being taken seriously as having made a fashion choice still feels like "good fatty" energy. Fat people should be able to roll out of bed and slap on a T-shirt just like skinny people and be taken seriously as human beings.
Aw man sad I had to join the convo a day late but had to express my intense enthusiasm regarding the topic of frump as Fashion/a deliberate Aesthetic. I saw this traveling outside the US and it was so sincerely pleasing to see. Would love to find a deep dive from maybe a cultural anthropologist to see how this trend possibly ties into the pandemic and the entire world prioritizing comfort and just doing what we all could to get through it all. You’re always giving me more food for thought!