Jul 11, 2023·edited Jul 11, 2023Liked by Virginia Sole-Smith
Burnt Toast works as a "touching stone" for my life, my work, my parenting. In the past, I used to judge myself for not being "finally fixed" from diet culture. And only recently have I realized (thanks to reading BT) that the pressure weighing down on all of us to be thin is exhausting and downright inescapable. It is everywhere. (I live at 7,500 feet elevation, in relative obscurity, and even out here, I STILL run into the mental pressure to be thin.)
The voices I hear are all so sneaky and slimy—and they normalize distrusting myself at nearly every goddamn turn. I realize now that building in touchstones like BT is part of my self-care plan, not because I need to be indoctrinated with anti-diet spiels, but because I deserve to hear from people who aren't actively trying to make me hate myself.
As an aside: I do wonder if BT has a place for body-trusting professionals who aren't explicitly working in anti-diet spheres. Two reason I'm asking: one is that, when I do seek out professional/creative help, I can pick up on someone who actively hates their body even if we aren't doing "body work" and this makes me very sad and tired; and two, because as an editor, I'd love to have a way for other writers to know that they can bring their stories to me and my work as an editor is grounded in full confidence that they know what they are ready to say. Not trying to pitch myself here. But also, trying to stand up and say, I'm an editor and I innately trust bodies and I think this matters in relationships beyond the physician/patient dynamic. 🫶
I love this idea so much. We don’t have the bandwidth to facilitate any kind of database right now -- I’ve thought about it, but figuring out standard criteria and how to vet people, etc... there’s a lot to it! but it’s something on my radar for the future.
I love the idea of providing a way for service providers to communicate that they are explicitly fat inclusive. I’m part of a FB group for editors for fat liberation, perhaps you are interested? I don’t know the etiquette of trying to connect with people from Substack but if you’re interested perhaps we can find a way to connect.
I'd love to see some writing. Or some discussion done around being fat in fitness spaces. I'm a yoga teacher and pilates enthusiast. Since covid I find it incredibly hard to find places that feel safe for me. I even find my own students' discussion around their bodies hostile towards larger beings or added "pandemic weight.." The pandemic was a long healing time for me with food and movement. And I guess I don't see a lot of discussion like that
I recently went to a new anti-diet group meeting started by a parent that I don't know and I was so thrilled to have a community of people near me. It was a zoom and everyone was (95%) on the same page. It was great to talk about all of this stuff with people who agree, but everyone except me was ... thin! Has anyone else had this happen? I live (rent at a below market rate) in a very privileged neighborhood of a city and often feel like I'm surrounded by thin wealthy women. I fully support everyone going on this anti-diet journey no matter their size or any other qualifier - but I was hoping to meet people who have also experienced life in a fat body. I'm not sure what exactly I'm looking for here - I guess community! Thanks
Hi! I'm on a parent listserv and another mom started a conversation and organized a meetup with those who were interested. She's a career coach and is really great at leading discussions.
Here’s a teen topic related to eating that I am trying to navigate. Our middle son is 18 and a competitive extreme athlete (downhill mountain bike racing = a parent’s worst nightmare—I should have let him play football: it’s way safer!). In the past year, he’s bought into male diet culture: eating protein and veggies, intermittent fasting, the whole 9 yards. Our youngest son is 16, struggling with anxiety and depression, and on the mild end of the autism spectrum. He’s gained weight, which I refuse to comment on. (I also refuse to comment on the transition to buffness of the middle kid.) However, middle kiddo (despite endless coaching) CONSTANTLY makes mean comments about younger kiddo’s weight, food choices, and body, which lead to regular meltdowns.
The middle kiddo leaves for college next week, so the immediate problem will resolve itself. Longer term, I know that brain development will eventually make the issue dissipate. But surely I am not alone in trying to create a body-positive space for everyone, while also contending with challenging interpersonal dynamics between teens, so sharing this as surely someone has researched this!! (I am waiting to buy Fat Talk until I return from extended travel with the family, so apologies if this is covered there!)
I can’t answer this as a parent (my daughter is 2), but as a teen I went through a phase where I was really really mean to one of my sisters. It took space and time for me to mature to solve it, but there were a few things happening at the time that looking back that might be relevant for you:
I’m not trying to blame anyone else for it - at the end of the day I was very much not being my best self and I’m ashamed of that to this day. My sister and I were also both neurotypical, so that wasn’t a factor and she gave as good as she got. I was also a kid, so I try to give myself a little grace as I’ve reflected on where it was coming from and what the heck was going on. For me, it came from a dynamic that I didn’t recognize until therapy years later: my mom very much identified with my sister and the challenges she went through as a teen, and decided early on that my life was much easier than hers, and would tell me so whenever we fought. No matter who started the fight, it was my fault and I should be the bigger person because my sister “had a tougher time” than I did all around. There are things about this that we’re true and things that weren’t, but there were a few years where, looking back, I couldn’t go a single day without my mom telling me that I had everything easier than my sister and so therefore if she wanted to steal my favorite boots without permission I needed to be nice about it. I was lashing out. I’m NOT saying anything like that is happening here. But it’s possible it has nothing at all to do with food.
As for ideas for what to do, in case your son is feeling some kind of way more generally about his brother and it’s coming out through food talk, Im SURE you have done something like this a ton since it’s 20 years later than when I was a teen and parenting is just totally different now, but if you haven’t recently taken your kid out to lunch and said “it must be really hard to be brothers with XYZ sometimes, huh? Tell me about it. I know you love him and I won’t judge you for anything you feel. I love you and I want to hear everything” I would suggest doing that. It would have made a HUGE difference for me to be able to process my relationship with my sister with my parents without judgement, and with total trust from them that I do love my sister.
Separately, my dad had a convo with me once that didn’t solve everything but did make a difference and percolated over time. He essentially said, “I love you, and I don’t think this is who you are. But the thing that no one tells you about life is you get to choose the person you want to be, and right now you’re choosing to be the kind of person who is pretty awful to your sister.” Now as a mid-thirties mom, looking back, I think it would have been great if he had added “I’m curious - why do YOU think you’re choosing that right now?” Or “I know it likely doesn’t feel like a conscious choice to you. What do YOU think is going on?” But even without that, I think that convo was pretty life changing over time.
But also, I realized when talking to my sister when we weren’t fighting that my parents weren’t having any similar convos with her, and again I realized later that set back my progress because I was so hurt to find out that they viewed all of the things she did to hurt me as ok and understandable (even when she was the instigator) and everything I did as terrible. It hurts to this day, honestly, and has continued in some ways in our family dynamic! You are in a different situation, so it won’t look the same for you, but I would recommend thinking through how you can show your older son how you’re protecting him too, even if it looks different from how you protect your younger son.
And then, obviously, in the moment being really clear: hey, that kind of thing is not ok to say to anyone and I’m shocked you’re still saying it to your brother. It’s pretty horrible to hear you use that kind of language/make those kinds of comments when you know how unacceptable it is to comment on other people’s bodies. Etc etc etc. all of the above is NOT to say that I think anything he’s saying is ok or he should be given any leeway to say it. Just acknowledging that there may be some other conversation starters or stuff going on that’s not about the food, and he’s making those comments precisely because he knows they’ll be hurtful, but he doesn’t actually care about that stuff.
I used to dig at my sisters clothes. I did not give a flying fuck what clothes she wore, but I knew society did and it would hurt.
Also, interestingly, I’m a middle child. The sister I was mean to was my older sister, but I do think there was some middle child stuff going on.
Again, I feel compelled to say for others reading that I don’t think any comments or bullying about anyone else’s weight or food is ok, and also don’t mean to come across like I think my meanness to my sister was my parents fault. Just trying to peel back the curtain a bit so maybe you can find a new way in, in case anything here sparks something for you. It was a complex time for me and my sister. As a light at the end of the tunnel, we have a good relationship today, and it came primarily from getting space and our own lives. Turns out we’re good sisters, we just aren’t great roommates.
Becca, thank you for this incredibly generous and helpful comment. I’m taking notes for if/when my girls go through a rough patch. I love, love all of your advice.
Jul 11, 2023·edited Jul 11, 2023Liked by Virginia Sole-Smith
Becca, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your perspective. So many great insights and good ideas. I think I have opened the door to loving, non-judgmental conversation with both of them about the dynamic, but your perspective makes me think that I should be a LOT more explicit about that, and I think your framing is spot on. Can’t thank you enough for sharing, and I can see how there are aspects of that dynamic that persist long after leaving home. As older parents, we won’t get to see our kids as deep into adulthood as our parents saw us, and we are both super clear that we hope they will come to see each other as friends and comrades with the deep shared history that only growing up together can bring.
I also had conflict with my sister; she was both slightly younger and the favorite, so everything I did was either a cautionary tale or bettered. As adults, we’re fine, if not especially close (which is more a by-product of geography and temperament then legacy ill will). With our other siblings, we joke about the dynamic and how messed up our mom’s favoritism was, which is helpful.
Thanks again. Super helpful, and when I return home I plan to print for bedside reference!!
I also have a teen son who is an athlete is getting into buff sports dude culture in a way that is diet culture adjacent but makes me nervous. He has cut back on eating sugar a lot and is very into protein and trying to grow muscle. I'm trying to find the balance of "he's allowed to make choices about eating and shaping his body" and "it makes me nervous that you don't want to eat ice cream with us as much" so I'd love to see some exploration of the sports diet culture stuff too!
There’s a whole chapter on sports diet culture in the book and I have a podcast interview coming up about this. Also check out the Kyle Ganson interview from a few weeks ago!
I can completely relate!! It’s hard knowing how bogus so much of the “research” he claims it’s all based on is, and how vulnerable he seems to be to make body type ideals. Also: all the selfies!! So many selfies. So so so many….
SO MANY SELFIES. And, I get it, he has a six pack for the first time in his life and some new found body confidence. I love that for him. But it's hard to know where the line is between getting functionally strong for soccer tryouts and starting to get body obsessed in a diet culture kind of way.
You nailed it! That’s exactly the tension I feel: glad for him to be confident, worried about obsessing about his appearance. Thanks for putting words to something I have not been able to.
Virginia, it is worth the subscription just to have you advocate for fat people like you did in the Cup of Joe piece. So powerful, so bravely and professionally done. You must have reached so many people with a message they rarely get to hear.
Gearing up to do my first reader survey next month as CIHAS turns one - as a baby newsletter it's really cool to see how more established newsletters are getting on. Super appreciate you sharing this!
It just struck me that the paradigm burnt toast and others (Aubrey Gordon) posit is so like second wave radical lesbian feminism. I am 76 and in the 1970s I was a part of a group that eschewed concern with body size. Any size was OK. Not shaving your legs or your armpits was just fine. We chose to ignore what is now called the male gaze. There seem to be many similarities between that time and what you all are doing now. What you all are doing is not just about body inclusivity (don’t know the right descriptor) it is also very much about feminism. I love it!
Just wanted to say that I love BT (the newsletter, Friday threads, and especially the podcast!) and regularly give it as a resource to my clients, especially parents, who are struggling to feed their families or themselves. Fat Talk is awesome, and I cannot wait to read The Eating Instinct soon. I especially love your episodes with Corinne- you two have such easy, engaging conversations that cover a multitude of unrelated topics in a seamless way.
I’m going to shamelessly request another “Is It a Diet? The Answer is Always Yes” segment because I literally laugh out loud listening to your spontaneous critiques. You also offer so much helpful insight that I struggle to articulate at times when I’m debunking these diets/plans/programs for clients. I know you’ve said they’re tedious and ridiculous to do but I think that’s partially why they resonate. Diet culture is so pervasive and insidious, and regularly reminding ourselves that even if we’ve divested from it, we likely know or love someone who is still struggling with it.
OK, this just gave me the (very obvious/why didn’t I think of it!) idea to bring that segment into Indulgence Gospel episodes and maybe even some of the guest interviews… so thank you and stay tuned!
Burnt Toast works as a "touching stone" for my life, my work, my parenting. In the past, I used to judge myself for not being "finally fixed" from diet culture. And only recently have I realized (thanks to reading BT) that the pressure weighing down on all of us to be thin is exhausting and downright inescapable. It is everywhere. (I live at 7,500 feet elevation, in relative obscurity, and even out here, I STILL run into the mental pressure to be thin.)
The voices I hear are all so sneaky and slimy—and they normalize distrusting myself at nearly every goddamn turn. I realize now that building in touchstones like BT is part of my self-care plan, not because I need to be indoctrinated with anti-diet spiels, but because I deserve to hear from people who aren't actively trying to make me hate myself.
As an aside: I do wonder if BT has a place for body-trusting professionals who aren't explicitly working in anti-diet spheres. Two reason I'm asking: one is that, when I do seek out professional/creative help, I can pick up on someone who actively hates their body even if we aren't doing "body work" and this makes me very sad and tired; and two, because as an editor, I'd love to have a way for other writers to know that they can bring their stories to me and my work as an editor is grounded in full confidence that they know what they are ready to say. Not trying to pitch myself here. But also, trying to stand up and say, I'm an editor and I innately trust bodies and I think this matters in relationships beyond the physician/patient dynamic. 🫶
I love this idea so much. We don’t have the bandwidth to facilitate any kind of database right now -- I’ve thought about it, but figuring out standard criteria and how to vet people, etc... there’s a lot to it! but it’s something on my radar for the future.
I love the idea of providing a way for service providers to communicate that they are explicitly fat inclusive. I’m part of a FB group for editors for fat liberation, perhaps you are interested? I don’t know the etiquette of trying to connect with people from Substack but if you’re interested perhaps we can find a way to connect.
Oh I’m so heartened to know about this group! I’m not on Facebook, though. Is there a website or email list I could sign up for? 🫶
Unfortunately no. I’m not on FB much either. Mostly for groups like this. It’s tricky when it’s the only space for some things.
I'd love to see some writing. Or some discussion done around being fat in fitness spaces. I'm a yoga teacher and pilates enthusiast. Since covid I find it incredibly hard to find places that feel safe for me. I even find my own students' discussion around their bodies hostile towards larger beings or added "pandemic weight.." The pandemic was a long healing time for me with food and movement. And I guess I don't see a lot of discussion like that
We’ve done some -- check out my podcast interview with Lauren Leavell and def read Corinne’s essay Mass Moves Mass. But will absolutely do more!
Def will do
Hi All,
I recently went to a new anti-diet group meeting started by a parent that I don't know and I was so thrilled to have a community of people near me. It was a zoom and everyone was (95%) on the same page. It was great to talk about all of this stuff with people who agree, but everyone except me was ... thin! Has anyone else had this happen? I live (rent at a below market rate) in a very privileged neighborhood of a city and often feel like I'm surrounded by thin wealthy women. I fully support everyone going on this anti-diet journey no matter their size or any other qualifier - but I was hoping to meet people who have also experienced life in a fat body. I'm not sure what exactly I'm looking for here - I guess community! Thanks
i think this is VERY common in anti-diet spaces that aren’t explicitly fat communities. And it’s a big problem!
AAAHHH thank you!!! You're the best and this makes me feel less crazy. I have been feeling like..... what just happened?
Would love to hear how you found a group like that
Hi! I'm on a parent listserv and another mom started a conversation and organized a meetup with those who were interested. She's a career coach and is really great at leading discussions.
Fun to see the data!
Here’s a teen topic related to eating that I am trying to navigate. Our middle son is 18 and a competitive extreme athlete (downhill mountain bike racing = a parent’s worst nightmare—I should have let him play football: it’s way safer!). In the past year, he’s bought into male diet culture: eating protein and veggies, intermittent fasting, the whole 9 yards. Our youngest son is 16, struggling with anxiety and depression, and on the mild end of the autism spectrum. He’s gained weight, which I refuse to comment on. (I also refuse to comment on the transition to buffness of the middle kid.) However, middle kiddo (despite endless coaching) CONSTANTLY makes mean comments about younger kiddo’s weight, food choices, and body, which lead to regular meltdowns.
The middle kiddo leaves for college next week, so the immediate problem will resolve itself. Longer term, I know that brain development will eventually make the issue dissipate. But surely I am not alone in trying to create a body-positive space for everyone, while also contending with challenging interpersonal dynamics between teens, so sharing this as surely someone has researched this!! (I am waiting to buy Fat Talk until I return from extended travel with the family, so apologies if this is covered there!)
I can’t answer this as a parent (my daughter is 2), but as a teen I went through a phase where I was really really mean to one of my sisters. It took space and time for me to mature to solve it, but there were a few things happening at the time that looking back that might be relevant for you:
I’m not trying to blame anyone else for it - at the end of the day I was very much not being my best self and I’m ashamed of that to this day. My sister and I were also both neurotypical, so that wasn’t a factor and she gave as good as she got. I was also a kid, so I try to give myself a little grace as I’ve reflected on where it was coming from and what the heck was going on. For me, it came from a dynamic that I didn’t recognize until therapy years later: my mom very much identified with my sister and the challenges she went through as a teen, and decided early on that my life was much easier than hers, and would tell me so whenever we fought. No matter who started the fight, it was my fault and I should be the bigger person because my sister “had a tougher time” than I did all around. There are things about this that we’re true and things that weren’t, but there were a few years where, looking back, I couldn’t go a single day without my mom telling me that I had everything easier than my sister and so therefore if she wanted to steal my favorite boots without permission I needed to be nice about it. I was lashing out. I’m NOT saying anything like that is happening here. But it’s possible it has nothing at all to do with food.
As for ideas for what to do, in case your son is feeling some kind of way more generally about his brother and it’s coming out through food talk, Im SURE you have done something like this a ton since it’s 20 years later than when I was a teen and parenting is just totally different now, but if you haven’t recently taken your kid out to lunch and said “it must be really hard to be brothers with XYZ sometimes, huh? Tell me about it. I know you love him and I won’t judge you for anything you feel. I love you and I want to hear everything” I would suggest doing that. It would have made a HUGE difference for me to be able to process my relationship with my sister with my parents without judgement, and with total trust from them that I do love my sister.
Separately, my dad had a convo with me once that didn’t solve everything but did make a difference and percolated over time. He essentially said, “I love you, and I don’t think this is who you are. But the thing that no one tells you about life is you get to choose the person you want to be, and right now you’re choosing to be the kind of person who is pretty awful to your sister.” Now as a mid-thirties mom, looking back, I think it would have been great if he had added “I’m curious - why do YOU think you’re choosing that right now?” Or “I know it likely doesn’t feel like a conscious choice to you. What do YOU think is going on?” But even without that, I think that convo was pretty life changing over time.
But also, I realized when talking to my sister when we weren’t fighting that my parents weren’t having any similar convos with her, and again I realized later that set back my progress because I was so hurt to find out that they viewed all of the things she did to hurt me as ok and understandable (even when she was the instigator) and everything I did as terrible. It hurts to this day, honestly, and has continued in some ways in our family dynamic! You are in a different situation, so it won’t look the same for you, but I would recommend thinking through how you can show your older son how you’re protecting him too, even if it looks different from how you protect your younger son.
And then, obviously, in the moment being really clear: hey, that kind of thing is not ok to say to anyone and I’m shocked you’re still saying it to your brother. It’s pretty horrible to hear you use that kind of language/make those kinds of comments when you know how unacceptable it is to comment on other people’s bodies. Etc etc etc. all of the above is NOT to say that I think anything he’s saying is ok or he should be given any leeway to say it. Just acknowledging that there may be some other conversation starters or stuff going on that’s not about the food, and he’s making those comments precisely because he knows they’ll be hurtful, but he doesn’t actually care about that stuff.
I used to dig at my sisters clothes. I did not give a flying fuck what clothes she wore, but I knew society did and it would hurt.
Also, interestingly, I’m a middle child. The sister I was mean to was my older sister, but I do think there was some middle child stuff going on.
Again, I feel compelled to say for others reading that I don’t think any comments or bullying about anyone else’s weight or food is ok, and also don’t mean to come across like I think my meanness to my sister was my parents fault. Just trying to peel back the curtain a bit so maybe you can find a new way in, in case anything here sparks something for you. It was a complex time for me and my sister. As a light at the end of the tunnel, we have a good relationship today, and it came primarily from getting space and our own lives. Turns out we’re good sisters, we just aren’t great roommates.
Becca, thank you for this incredibly generous and helpful comment. I’m taking notes for if/when my girls go through a rough patch. I love, love all of your advice.
Becca, I can’t thank you enough for sharing your perspective. So many great insights and good ideas. I think I have opened the door to loving, non-judgmental conversation with both of them about the dynamic, but your perspective makes me think that I should be a LOT more explicit about that, and I think your framing is spot on. Can’t thank you enough for sharing, and I can see how there are aspects of that dynamic that persist long after leaving home. As older parents, we won’t get to see our kids as deep into adulthood as our parents saw us, and we are both super clear that we hope they will come to see each other as friends and comrades with the deep shared history that only growing up together can bring.
I also had conflict with my sister; she was both slightly younger and the favorite, so everything I did was either a cautionary tale or bettered. As adults, we’re fine, if not especially close (which is more a by-product of geography and temperament then legacy ill will). With our other siblings, we joke about the dynamic and how messed up our mom’s favoritism was, which is helpful.
Thanks again. Super helpful, and when I return home I plan to print for bedside reference!!
I’m so glad it was helpful! And thank you for taking it in the spirit it was intended 💛
❤️
I think Becca nailed it below -- but there is a good discussion of sibling body shaming in Chapter 4 of FAT TALK!
Can’t wait to dig in to the book! And lord knows we need all the help we can muster!
I also have a teen son who is an athlete is getting into buff sports dude culture in a way that is diet culture adjacent but makes me nervous. He has cut back on eating sugar a lot and is very into protein and trying to grow muscle. I'm trying to find the balance of "he's allowed to make choices about eating and shaping his body" and "it makes me nervous that you don't want to eat ice cream with us as much" so I'd love to see some exploration of the sports diet culture stuff too!
There’s a whole chapter on sports diet culture in the book and I have a podcast interview coming up about this. Also check out the Kyle Ganson interview from a few weeks ago!
Yes. This
I can completely relate!! It’s hard knowing how bogus so much of the “research” he claims it’s all based on is, and how vulnerable he seems to be to make body type ideals. Also: all the selfies!! So many selfies. So so so many….
SO MANY SELFIES. And, I get it, he has a six pack for the first time in his life and some new found body confidence. I love that for him. But it's hard to know where the line is between getting functionally strong for soccer tryouts and starting to get body obsessed in a diet culture kind of way.
You nailed it! That’s exactly the tension I feel: glad for him to be confident, worried about obsessing about his appearance. Thanks for putting words to something I have not been able to.
Virginia, it is worth the subscription just to have you advocate for fat people like you did in the Cup of Joe piece. So powerful, so bravely and professionally done. You must have reached so many people with a message they rarely get to hear.
Thank you so much!
Gearing up to do my first reader survey next month as CIHAS turns one - as a baby newsletter it's really cool to see how more established newsletters are getting on. Super appreciate you sharing this!
Oh so glad it’s helpful!
It just struck me that the paradigm burnt toast and others (Aubrey Gordon) posit is so like second wave radical lesbian feminism. I am 76 and in the 1970s I was a part of a group that eschewed concern with body size. Any size was OK. Not shaving your legs or your armpits was just fine. We chose to ignore what is now called the male gaze. There seem to be many similarities between that time and what you all are doing now. What you all are doing is not just about body inclusivity (don’t know the right descriptor) it is also very much about feminism. I love it!
I also love it! And we definitely learned from all of your work!
Yay for a Seattle event!!
Dec 3! Official announcement coming but mark your calendars!
Calendar marked! I live in Olympia WA and what a great reason to go to Seattle.
Just wanted to say that I love BT (the newsletter, Friday threads, and especially the podcast!) and regularly give it as a resource to my clients, especially parents, who are struggling to feed their families or themselves. Fat Talk is awesome, and I cannot wait to read The Eating Instinct soon. I especially love your episodes with Corinne- you two have such easy, engaging conversations that cover a multitude of unrelated topics in a seamless way.
I’m going to shamelessly request another “Is It a Diet? The Answer is Always Yes” segment because I literally laugh out loud listening to your spontaneous critiques. You also offer so much helpful insight that I struggle to articulate at times when I’m debunking these diets/plans/programs for clients. I know you’ve said they’re tedious and ridiculous to do but I think that’s partially why they resonate. Diet culture is so pervasive and insidious, and regularly reminding ourselves that even if we’ve divested from it, we likely know or love someone who is still struggling with it.
OK, this just gave me the (very obvious/why didn’t I think of it!) idea to bring that segment into Indulgence Gospel episodes and maybe even some of the guest interviews… so thank you and stay tuned!
I adore the podcast and wanted to say please keep up the fabulous work! My only
wish is that they came out more often!
Yay! Thanks so much!
Thanks for sharing this information! And thanks for providing this space.
Okay you got me, I subscribed and I am happy about it!
Yay! So happy to have you!
You were SO great on "Everything is Fine"--that podcast ep and this survey gave me the push I needed. Thanks for all your hard work over here!