I think it’s also helpful to encourage women to spend their younger years single. I think that if you can spend a significant amount of time being single, living alone or with platonic roommates, and just learning who you are before making a commitment to anyone (but especially to a man) you’ll be in a better place to chose someone who helps you to create a better life than either of you would have had alone if you do ultimately decide to partner. You may also find that a traditional partnership isn’t for you and be more comfortable in that decision. I’m sure marrying young or always being in a relationship works for some people, I just don’t know any of them.
I absolutely agree with the thesis of thus piece. However, life is full if nuance that can't be ignored. I see, write about, and study most things through the lens of class. I think what is being ignored is the choice to divorce is astronomically more difficult when the wife/mother lives in poverty, has no employment, and no education. I laude women who make the choice that is right for them. However, let's not forget what it may be like to raise 3 kids on your minimum wage job, with no child care, no transportation, and insecure housing and food (with no child support or every other weekend child-free because of a deadbeat dad).
I heard two men talking about Vance's comments yesterday at a coffee shop and one guy was debating whether or not it was insulting to people without kids (which he was.) I wanted to say "He's not talking about YOU. He's talking about women."
I appreciate Lyz naming that it takes her an entire day to organize the calendar because I had forgotten that piece of this interview- I also would love to be able to claim I suck at organization, my mind also takes hours longer than I expect it to every year. My 7 yo seems to be good at writing down tasks in a planner and writing out a schedule so I’m hopeful for the future but we have paper and Google calendar we add to every school year.
I am so grateful to both Virginia and Lyz for raising all of these very important issues. Both of you have given me such comfort, insight, joy and hope. I'm curious if anyone has books or resources for those who can't leave their marriages due to finances. I'm feeling very trapped by my choices (and society's cruelty). There have to be more of us out there lol. Regardless - THANK YOU BOTH. You both do more good than you'll ever know.
"Unhappy couples get all the press (in part, I hazard, because ordinary happiness is so much harder to depict). And it has been the season for memoirs and novels about marriages on the rocks. Any list of my favorites in this crowded genre would have to begin with Natalia Ginzburg’s taut and creepy novella “The Dry Heart” (1947), which begins (and ends) with the heroine very calmly shooting her husband between his eyes. On the surface, Willa Cather’s “My Mortal Enemy” (1926) seems much more well-behaved, but it’s an even stranger, scarier story, featuring a woman undone not by betrayal but by getting exactly what she wanted; she is worn down, smothered, and effaced by love and devotion. Both books are quick and mean, clocking in at less than a hundred pages—the novella might be the genre for love that burns hot, burns out. But for brevity’s sake, the gold medal goes to Margaret Atwood and her six-word short story: 'Longed for him. Got him. Shit.'"
I hear that but...it's not the kids' fault? It's the fault of this institution that has decided to distribute the labor related to the kids so unequally, and of men who don't want to see it or fight to correct that imbalance. Of course it works better if you remove a huge amount of labor and have less to negotiate with a partner, but that doesn't solve these fundamental, systemic flaws.
I fully support childfree marriages and families and agree we'd all benefit from that narrative having more visibility. But it feels a bit like how many upper income straight couples try to solve these issues by hiring a nanny or a housekeeper. It's not making the men do more, it's just helping (wealthy) women do a little less. We still need to look at the core issues.
I don't really understand what you think you're "pushing back" on. You seem to be saying that 2 women with children talking about their own divorces is somehow unfair to you, a childless woman. I think you are doing some work to say "not all marriages" when nobody is attacking you or your marriage.
I am also married without children and I don't agree that it's a wholly different experience. Sometimes my husband behaves like a child and I behave like his mother (managing his schedule for him, for example). That's not a good dynamic. Why does that exist? Because we've both been socialized to behave that way. Children don't change the pre-existing interpersonal adult dynamics. Virginia & Lyz can't really talk about not having children, because that's not their reality, but I think the conversation is relevant for all women in relationships, even unmarried couples (who are technically also "invisible" by your definition).
I came to make a similar comment. I am also married to a man, without children. The literal day of my wedding, his grandmother pulled me to the side to ask me to get my spouse to make plans with his father for the following day which was Father's Day. Did she ask her grandson? No, she put the managing of the family activities/relationships directly on me. My spouse also tried to tell me that he didn't understand health insurance. I suggested he figure it out, and I compared it to the complex board games he plays regularly.
We're in a fairly equitable marriage but I still clean all the bathrooms. There are things I'm willing to fight against and things I just let go, at least at this point in time. The societal expectations/socializations run deep regarding gender and who is responsible for what in marriage, children or no.
Yes on all of this above. Also a childless woman, married 32 years to a man who has children. All adult now, but I've really been struggling for awhile with being the one who DOES everything. Talk about trying to change this after so long, coupled with some cultural leanings (him). It's constant energy to push back on things instead of doing them for him. This has surfaced a lot over the past years as I've had cancer twice since 2020. I was in the grocery store a day after surgery because it was COVID and he is at risk. As AK_girl says, pick your battles. I came to a horrifying realization once I got sober, and retired, about how much I was doing WHILE WORKING FULL TIME AND COMMUTING. I mean, I still grocery shopped, made dinner and cleaned. And what's not usually calculated (but is above, with the schedule stuff) is the mental load. I spend time planning what we eat, etc and that takes time! I mean, WTF? I recently decided to get someone to clean because time has become even more precious, and I am sick of cleaning. I wish I had done it sooner.
I am spouse and children free and yes, someone comes to clean my home. I use my DoorDash take out money. Priorities. I prefer cooking to cleaning. And so I do. Someone also does my laundry.
I think it’s also helpful to encourage women to spend their younger years single. I think that if you can spend a significant amount of time being single, living alone or with platonic roommates, and just learning who you are before making a commitment to anyone (but especially to a man) you’ll be in a better place to chose someone who helps you to create a better life than either of you would have had alone if you do ultimately decide to partner. You may also find that a traditional partnership isn’t for you and be more comfortable in that decision. I’m sure marrying young or always being in a relationship works for some people, I just don’t know any of them.
ABSOLUTELY CO-SIGN
Yes!
I absolutely agree with the thesis of thus piece. However, life is full if nuance that can't be ignored. I see, write about, and study most things through the lens of class. I think what is being ignored is the choice to divorce is astronomically more difficult when the wife/mother lives in poverty, has no employment, and no education. I laude women who make the choice that is right for them. However, let's not forget what it may be like to raise 3 kids on your minimum wage job, with no child care, no transportation, and insecure housing and food (with no child support or every other weekend child-free because of a deadbeat dad).
I heard two men talking about Vance's comments yesterday at a coffee shop and one guy was debating whether or not it was insulting to people without kids (which he was.) I wanted to say "He's not talking about YOU. He's talking about women."
Absolutely NOT talking about coffee dude.
I appreciate Lyz naming that it takes her an entire day to organize the calendar because I had forgotten that piece of this interview- I also would love to be able to claim I suck at organization, my mind also takes hours longer than I expect it to every year. My 7 yo seems to be good at writing down tasks in a planner and writing out a schedule so I’m hopeful for the future but we have paper and Google calendar we add to every school year.
I am so grateful to both Virginia and Lyz for raising all of these very important issues. Both of you have given me such comfort, insight, joy and hope. I'm curious if anyone has books or resources for those who can't leave their marriages due to finances. I'm feeling very trapped by my choices (and society's cruelty). There have to be more of us out there lol. Regardless - THANK YOU BOTH. You both do more good than you'll ever know.
My dream is to be part of the Virginia-Lyz-Anne-et al friend chat. I relate to all of you so much. Hope you’re enjoying your month off, Virginia!
"Unhappy couples get all the press (in part, I hazard, because ordinary happiness is so much harder to depict). And it has been the season for memoirs and novels about marriages on the rocks. Any list of my favorites in this crowded genre would have to begin with Natalia Ginzburg’s taut and creepy novella “The Dry Heart” (1947), which begins (and ends) with the heroine very calmly shooting her husband between his eyes. On the surface, Willa Cather’s “My Mortal Enemy” (1926) seems much more well-behaved, but it’s an even stranger, scarier story, featuring a woman undone not by betrayal but by getting exactly what she wanted; she is worn down, smothered, and effaced by love and devotion. Both books are quick and mean, clocking in at less than a hundred pages—the novella might be the genre for love that burns hot, burns out. But for brevity’s sake, the gold medal goes to Margaret Atwood and her six-word short story: 'Longed for him. Got him. Shit.'"
Parul Sehgal, The New Yorker Daily
I hear that but...it's not the kids' fault? It's the fault of this institution that has decided to distribute the labor related to the kids so unequally, and of men who don't want to see it or fight to correct that imbalance. Of course it works better if you remove a huge amount of labor and have less to negotiate with a partner, but that doesn't solve these fundamental, systemic flaws.
I fully support childfree marriages and families and agree we'd all benefit from that narrative having more visibility. But it feels a bit like how many upper income straight couples try to solve these issues by hiring a nanny or a housekeeper. It's not making the men do more, it's just helping (wealthy) women do a little less. We still need to look at the core issues.
I don't really understand what you think you're "pushing back" on. You seem to be saying that 2 women with children talking about their own divorces is somehow unfair to you, a childless woman. I think you are doing some work to say "not all marriages" when nobody is attacking you or your marriage.
I am also married without children and I don't agree that it's a wholly different experience. Sometimes my husband behaves like a child and I behave like his mother (managing his schedule for him, for example). That's not a good dynamic. Why does that exist? Because we've both been socialized to behave that way. Children don't change the pre-existing interpersonal adult dynamics. Virginia & Lyz can't really talk about not having children, because that's not their reality, but I think the conversation is relevant for all women in relationships, even unmarried couples (who are technically also "invisible" by your definition).
I came to make a similar comment. I am also married to a man, without children. The literal day of my wedding, his grandmother pulled me to the side to ask me to get my spouse to make plans with his father for the following day which was Father's Day. Did she ask her grandson? No, she put the managing of the family activities/relationships directly on me. My spouse also tried to tell me that he didn't understand health insurance. I suggested he figure it out, and I compared it to the complex board games he plays regularly.
We're in a fairly equitable marriage but I still clean all the bathrooms. There are things I'm willing to fight against and things I just let go, at least at this point in time. The societal expectations/socializations run deep regarding gender and who is responsible for what in marriage, children or no.
Yes on all of this above. Also a childless woman, married 32 years to a man who has children. All adult now, but I've really been struggling for awhile with being the one who DOES everything. Talk about trying to change this after so long, coupled with some cultural leanings (him). It's constant energy to push back on things instead of doing them for him. This has surfaced a lot over the past years as I've had cancer twice since 2020. I was in the grocery store a day after surgery because it was COVID and he is at risk. As AK_girl says, pick your battles. I came to a horrifying realization once I got sober, and retired, about how much I was doing WHILE WORKING FULL TIME AND COMMUTING. I mean, I still grocery shopped, made dinner and cleaned. And what's not usually calculated (but is above, with the schedule stuff) is the mental load. I spend time planning what we eat, etc and that takes time! I mean, WTF? I recently decided to get someone to clean because time has become even more precious, and I am sick of cleaning. I wish I had done it sooner.
I am spouse and children free and yes, someone comes to clean my home. I use my DoorDash take out money. Priorities. I prefer cooking to cleaning. And so I do. Someone also does my laundry.
Totally agree with you here.