You’re listening to Burnt Toast. This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health. I am Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.
And it’s time for your January Ask Us Anything with Corinne. This is a good one! We are getting into language around weight, cozy clothes, how to be a good ally, how to raise your thin kids not to be assholes to fat people. It’s really all here. You’re going to enjoy it.
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Episode 78 Transcript
Virginia
So we’re going to do some New Year’s questions.
Corinne
Happy New Year’s! Happy 2023!
Virginia
This is that artificial podcaster thing. Corinne and I are still in December. We’re recording in advance.
Corinne
Mentally, we’re already in 2023.
Virginia
So we’re going to do some New Year’s questions because folks sent them in. The New Year’s thing both is the same every year and also a new level of hell every year. Is that how you feel about it?
Corinne
My birthday is also in January so I feel like the December/New Year’s/birthday is always just a whirlwind of trying to fix my life and failing.
Virginia
You’re forced to take stock in all these different ways you don’t really want to be doing.
Corinne
I feel like if you have a birthday in another part of the year, you get another chance to reset during the year. But I have to do it all in January.
Virginia
You don’t get another shot for twelve months. That’s it.
Corinne
It’s my only chance to do any planning, goal setting.
Virginia
That’s funny. Well, happy birthday! By the time this airs, it will have happened.
Corinne
I am now… 37.
Virginia
You can say it out loud. This is a pro-aging podcast.
Corinne
I’m the age where you have to do math to remember how old you are.
Virginia
For sure. I’ve been there for a while and it doesn’t get easier.
Corinne
Q: Do you have any ideas about fun ways to buffer yourself from New Year’s, New You diet culture bullshit?
Virginia
I don’t know if it’s fun, but I do think it’s a good time to spend a little less time online, because that’s where the noise is. Making plans that will give you something to do other than doom scroll.
Corinne
I was going to say take a little time to unsubscribe from every email that says “New Year, New You.”
Virginia
There can be something so satisfying about using that as a catalyst because some brands you don’t think are terrible and then you get their January email and they show you their true colors. So it’s a nice opportunity. And it can be very cathartic to be like “unsubscribe, goodbye.”
Corinne
I sort of like the part of New Year that’s reflecting on last year and planning for the year ahead. So I think it can be fun to do some goal setting or planning.
Virginia
I agree. This is something I want to think more about and maybe write about at some point. Because I do think it’s like a chicken and egg thing. Is the New Year opportunity to reset and reflect, is that something diet culture invented? Or is it something diet culture co-opted? You know what I mean?
Corinne
Yeah, definitely.
Virginia
And if it’s the latter, then there’s something powerful in reclaiming it because I am someone who sets goals for the year. They tend to be work-related. But sometimes I set a personal goal or intention.
Corinne
Even like, go on a vacation.
Virginia
Or I want to get into a fun new hobby, like knitting or puzzles. I think there can be something really great about that. But it’s so easy for all of these things to get twisted, right?
Corinne
One goal I had last year was to pick up the dog poop in my backyard as it happened, rather than like…
Virginia
Letting it pile up and then being like, yeah, we’ve got to do it?
Corinne
It’s too gross to even talk about, but yeah.
Virginia
I think a lot of pet owners see you. We have a litter box that can get similar.
Corinne
Yeah. But now I’m thinking about what KC Davis was saying about if it works for you, maybe just let it work for you.
Virginia
If this is your system, embrace that it’s your system. That was so helpful. So that’s actually an interesting twist on the New Year’s thing, too. Instead of setting a goal to change something, can you set a goal to give yourself permission to keep doing something?
Corinne
Right! Or just accept the way you are.
Virginia
Just be like, this is something that works for me even though it is perhaps unconventional or doesn’t match up to whatever standards. Oh, I like that a lot.
Q: What was your best New Year’s Eve, and maybe your worst?
You’re laughing, so you go first.
Corinne
I’m laughing but I feel like I don’t have a great answer! For me New Year’s Eve is always one of those holidays where you have really high expectations and it’s always a letdown. My best in recent memory was like a couple of years ago when I had no plans for New Year’s Eve and I just had friends over for dinner and we had a very chill dinner and did a little tarot card reading.
Virginia
Oh, that sounds so nice.
Corinne
It was very fun and last minute and easy. And worst? God I’m sure there is a worst and and nothing is coming to mind. I’m sure involved a terrible hangover on January 1.
Virginia
I am weirdly romantic about New Year’s Eve and I blame Forrest Gump. I feel like when I saw Forrest Gump, there’s that scene where they’re like counting down New Year’s in the bar and the hooker—I think she’s a hooker? I don’t want to make assumptions. The lady that he was talking to gets this kind of wistful look on her face and she says everyone gets a second chance at New Year’s. It’s like a core memory from my childhood. She’s a truth speaker and so I’ve always been kind of romantic about New Years. But that led to being very disappointed about New Year’s plans often.
Corinne
Yeah, it seems like it should be this really cool thing and it’s always like, well everyone is tired from Christmas.
Virginia
But I will say when we were in our 20s and we lived in New York City still—I actually might totally be retconning this—we did throw a New Year’s party every year and I have memories of it being this epic time and that I did have a few of those new year’s that were like, the big party, beautiful memory. I don’t know if that’s actually right or if I just like to look back on that.
Corinne
Someone from Virginia’s past needs to write in and let us know.
Virginia
I mean, I know for sure there was one where… oh, I might get a text about this. Amy Palanjian and I split a bottle of tequila. This is a hilarious story for everyone who follows Yummy Toddler Food.
Corinne
Keep going. I feel like there’s more to that story.
Virginia
Okay I’m telling the story because it’s mostly humiliating for me, not Amy. Dan was in a comedy group and he was performing so we had to go to a late night comedy show, which is like a big ask for me and my attention span and feelings about improv comedy. Dan is very funny, but improv comedy is a mixed bag.
So we were going out to the show and then on to a party, and she came over to get ready with me. And we made some cocktail that was tequila-based and many other kinds of juices and put it in—because also Amy’s very outdoorsy— a Nalgene bottle for hiking. So it was hard to manage your intake. And that is the night where at the show I got thrown up on by a drunker person.
Corinne
I really thought you were going to be the one doing that.
Virginia
Well, the rest of the night took a turn and my only memory is lying on the sidewalk and having to be escorted home. It was terrible.
Corinne
Oh no! Laying on the sidewalk is serious.
Virginia
I’ve never drank tequila since. I have zero interest. Zero. Oh wait, is tequila in margaritas?
Corinne
Yes.
Virginia
Okay, so I’ve had a little bit.
Corinne
But never out of a Nalgene again.
Virginia
Never out of a Nalgene. And what I will say, just to shore up her brand now is I think Amy was a really good mom even then. This was was well before kids. And I think she took very good care of me.
Corinne
She made you Yummy Toddler Food for your hangover?
Virginia
Well, she also made the cocktail in the Nalgene bottle. It was early recipe testing days.
Corinne
I did just see her post about things to feed your sick toddler. Now I’m imagining her handing all those things to you.
Virginia
Being like, “Do you need pastina soup?” And actually, that would be great. Amy is totally the friend to take care of you hungover. But anyway, that might have been my worst New Year’s. But also, I don’t know. I survived it. These days my house is pretty booze free. I can have half a glass of wine and I will have a migraine the next day. My relationship with alcohol was never really like that and it has never been that again.
For a few years after we left the city, we got together with friends, with Amy’s family, and a couple other good friends. And then we finally all had too many children and we couldn’t all fit in one house and so that disbanded. Now it tends to be a pretty quiet night for us and I think I have a little bit of sadness of oh, those epic party days are gone but also. No one looks back and misses laying on the sidewalk.
Corinne
Yeah, and maybe those days will come back around when you’re in your sixties.
Virginia
I hope to never to drink tequila out of a Nalgene bottle again. Absolutely not. But I do enjoy a nice dinner party or something low key. Your night sounds perfect.
Okay, this reader wants to know if we have recommendations for socks that don’t dig into thicker calves.
Corinne
Okay, so, I have a few things to say about this. The first thing is, just personally, I wear ankle socks, which don’t go to your calves and therefore don’t dig into them. I’ve been enjoying the Madewell ankle socks. They’re just like a thicker ankle sock.
However, the other thing that you should know about this is there is a whole wealth of socks that don’t dig into your calves because they are diabetes socks.
Virginia
Oh, so smart.
Corinne
They are designed to not impede circulation in any way. So, they don’t have elastic at the top, or they’re sort of like a stretchier knit. So you can just Google “diabetic socks” and you’ll get a whole slew of socks that are looser fitting.
Virginia
This is such a good tip. That’s really excellent.
Corinne
I don’t have any specific brand recommendations, but you’ll find them. I know Maggie’s Organics that everyone loves and like they make diabetic socks. So check it out.
Virginia
Perfect. I also just mostly do ankle socks. I blame skinny jeans for that, because once the skinny jeans trend happened there’s no socks you can pull up under a skinny jean.
Corinne
And with shorts, I think I just prefer the way ankle socks feel and look.
Virginia
You sometimes do want taller sock with boots.
Corinne
Another thing I’ve been seeing is brands advertising slouchy socks, which I think might be the same.
Virginia
Like from the 80s?
Corinne
Yeah, that like scrunch down.
Virginia
That Reminds me of The Baby-Sitters Club with their triple slouch socks, which is a look I really leaned into in the 80’s.
Corinne
You can lean back into it.
Virginia
That’s exciting. I just bought a big hair claw, one of the big banana clip kind of claws. I’m really here for 80’s accessories returning.
Corinne
Q: Cozy clothes?
I feel like we’ve had a cozy clothes question every month. But we do have some new cozy recommendations.
Virginia
Well, last month we talked about coats so I think this time we should talk about indoor loungewear coziness which is a different category. I don’t want to necessarily wear like a big sweater. I’m actually wearing a sweater today and I’m really hot. It’s reminding me that don’t want to be doing that. I actually want breathable cozy clothes versus heavy wool sweaters. I think I want to be cozy and then I’m just boiling. So I have a sweatshirt from Eileen Fisher—we’re gonna be team Eileen Fisher again.
Corinne
One thing I want to say about Eileen Fisher—because we did have someone comment that it’s very expensive. There’s so much of it on eBay and Poshmark. You don’t need to buy your Eileen Fisher new. And you can find it on sale a lot through department stores and stuff.
Virginia
That is a very good tip. I’m glad you mentioned that. I got this in my Stitch Fix. So I paid a Stitch Fix price. It wasn’t super cheap, probably a lot for a sweatshirt. It’s a really cheerful bright pink color that makes me super happy. And it’s very well cut and lightweight, I don’t get hot in it but it’s still very soft. I’ve been wearing that a lot with leggings or sweatpants etc.
And I will also be a total influencer for a moment and say the Boston Birkenstock clogs really are as good as everyone says. I am on my second pair of the shearling lined ones. I made a mistake the first time, a few years ago, I bought them in light pink. And that was a poor choice because they got very dirty very quickly and kind of just looked not good. After I wore those into the ground, I bought them in navy. I love them so much and they’re my indoor shoes.
I’m a big fan of house shoes and house pants. I like slippers. But I’m 41 and my feet hurt a lot and I need arch support. And I work from home, I never leave my house. On the price point, I had a moment of, am I going to spend over $100 on house shoes? And then I thought, I will wear these more than any of my outdoor shoes.
Corinne
That’s a good point.
Virginia
I don’t really understand how the Boston clogs got so trendy on TikTok.
Corinne
I feel like it’s one specific color.
Virginia
Is it the taupe color?
Corinne
Yeah, I think so. And in like a young woman range of sizes. I think you can still find them in men’s sizes and different colors.
Virginia
Well, the navy shearling are great.
Corinne
My new cozy clothes investment is a robe from Peridot Robes.
Virginia
Your robe! I’m so obsessed. Tell us, I don’t even know this brand so tell us everything.
Corinne
Well, it’s a brand that makes plus size robes. That’s almost all they make. They make a few other things, like a crop top and like a jumpsuit. And I think there may be some other things coming next year. She uses all remnant material, so it’s earth friendly, sustainable. The cuts are just great. I feel like robes weirdly are kind of hard to find, especially ones that overlap a lot. And the one I got is the cuddle robe. It has a hood! And it’s not a V-neck, which I really like. It’s almost like more like a coat. And it has sweatshirt cuffs. It’s so great. I’ve just been wearing it like over my clothes if I need to take the trash out or something like that. I’m going to a hot springs place with my mom and sister over Christmas and I’m so excited to wear it over a bathing suit.
Virginia
A good robe to wear over a bathing suit is critical for getting out of the water, when it’s cold. You’re gonna be happy about that.
Corinne
Yeah, so definitely check out Peridot.
Virginia
And for a quick budget cozy option, I have a fleece from Target I really like. It’s like pink—very into pink for my coziness apparently. I got it last spring. So I’m hoping they’ll still have it. But if they don’t have this one, they’ll probably do a similar cozy fleece option. I will say styling-wise, it’s definitely a knockoff of like Madewell or Alder Apparel or one of those, which you can have your feelings about. But it was $20. So you know, a really good price! And it’s very oversized, like the arms are blousy. I think probably Target caps out at a 3x, but I would guess there’s some flexibility.
Corinne
Technically they now have a 4x.
Virginia
I don’t trust us to say that ever since the J. Crew coat saga. I don’t want to promise that it comes in whatever sizes it comes in because it will change by the time this airs. But yeah, in theory.
Corinne
Target has good fleeces. There are probably other ones if this one is sold out.
[Virginia note: It is! Sorry! We linked a GREAT alternative above and I also like this one and this one.]
Virginia
Target is one of the more reliable budget plus size options in general.
Corinne
Q: Can you talk about what terms like small fat or skinny fat mean? I want to better understand how these ways of identifying can help us acknowledge how we show up in these spaces and what privileges might be clouding our view.
Virginia
These are great terms to understand. They are not the same. And I also just want to quickly say that language is always evolving, and terms have different meanings to different people. So Corinne and I will talk about what these terms mean to us and our general understanding. But this is in no way the final word on defining these terms. Six months from now, we might have a different definition for these terms.
Small fat is a term I apply to myself or to other folks who wear anywhere from a 16 to a 20. Is that how you would define small fat?
Corinne
I would say it’s like the smallest plus sizes. So yeah, like 16/18 ish.
Virginia
The reason we use small fat is we want to understand that fatness is a spectrum and that anti-fat bias hurts everybody but hurts fat people the most. So the fatter you are, the more harmed you are by it. And so we are acknowledging that there is privilege in being small fat. You are going to face less discrimination than someone who is mid fat or super fat.
Corinne
Yeah and just have fewer issues with accessibility in terms of spaces, seating, clothing.
Virginia
You still benefit from thin privilege in the small fat space, which I think is a concept that people find challenging sometimes, but absolutely true.
There’s a really good piece on Medium by Cherry Midnight explaining superfat. That came out of a conference—I think it was NOLOSE. The folks who were using the term superfat realized, even at a convention for fat people, that accessibility issues were coming up. And so those folks realized that they needed a special designation for themselves to advocate for their needs, even within the community of other fat people.
Corinne
Because even within fat spaces, a lot of times small fat people are prioritized or have more visibility.
Virginia
I think small fat people are the most likely to cause some of the harm around “it doesn’t matter how much you weigh, as long as you’re healthy.” We just have to be really mindful that our role here is not just to make our own lives easier. And to recognize that there is a privilege in being a palatable fat person. And that that comes with a responsibility, where you need to advocate for the needs of other people who are not being heard and will look for ways to make them be heard.
Corinne
What is your understanding of skinny fat?
Virginia
Skinny fat is I think a more offensive term. In my understanding it is used to describe thin people who don’t exercise a lot. My pop culture reference for this is an episode of Weeds where Jane Lynch, who was a scary fitness obsessed pot dealer I think, called Mary Louise Parker skinny fat. Because she was trying to yell at her about working out or something. And it was like “funny” in the scene. And also not. It’s basically a way of being like “You’re thin, but you’re still not good enough. And the reason you’re not good enough is because you remind me of a fat person.” So, it’s an anti-fat term.
Corinne
I’ve heard it also only in like a “joking” context meaning people who are thin but not like muscular, kind of? Like you’re thin but still have body fat?
Virginia
Which one would hope that you would! Body fat seems normal for health and functioning of a human body.
And it’s also reinforcing so many things, right? Someone can work out a ton and not have the body type that produces a lot of visible muscle. It’s definitely playing into thinking you can look at somebody’s body and decide everything about their lifestyle habits, which is just absolutely false. So yeah, I would say ditch skinny fat from your vocabulary or at least reflect upon it. Small fat I think is a useful term.
Corinne
If you want other terms to describe fatness, you can look up the spectrum. There’s also mid fat, superfat, infinifat.
Virginia
What do you like? Like, what how do you identify yourself?
Corinne
Um, that’s a good question. I’m on the edge between mid fat and super fat. So I guess I would use those.
Virginia
And do you find that helpful? Or is it frustrating?
Corinne
I mean, I’m so rarely in a space where I could be using those terms and anyone would know what I’m talking about, at least in real life. Online, maybe?
I definitely get how accessibility changes as you change size. And I do think it’s helpful to acknowledge that people at different levels of fatness experience different levels of not being able to access things. So I do think it’s helpful in that sense.
Virginia
What’s your take on the term small fat?
Corinne
I think small fat is helpful designation.
Virginia
Q: What is helpful as an ally to say when a fat person denigrates themselves to you?
Corinne
This is a tough question because on the one hand, you want to not be fatphobic. And on the other hand, you want to be supportive of your friend and their experience. So you have to tread lightly and it’s gonna depend on the situation. Something I have recommended in the past to thin folks is just to be like, “I love you” or “I love fat people.” Just to be like, however you might feel this is how I feel.
Virginia
That’s lovely.
Corinne
There’s a lot of contexts in which that might not be comfortable, though. Like, if it’s like a co-worker or someone you don’t know very well.
Virginia
Someone where declaring your love feels inappropriate.
Corinne
Someone you just met and you’re like, “Well, I love you. So who cares what you think.”
Virginia
“Thanks for walking my dog.” “Thanks for dropping off this UPS package.”
Corinne
I guess you could be like, “However you feel, there are fat people in my life that I love. And I don’t love to hear them complaining about themselves.” I don’t know.
Virginia
Whenever possible I like to put the blame on the system, not on the people. I love saying “I love a lot of fat people. I hate that this culture makes you feel bad about your body.”
Corinne
I like that.
Virginia
I’m channeling my Aubrey Gordon advice here. But don’t dismiss what they’re saying they experience. Don’t say like, “I’m sure that person didn’t mean to be so rude.” Or, “you’re probably misreading that.”
Corinne
Or “You’re not fat.”
Virginia
Yeah, don’t deny reality. And don’t deny their reality. If they’re saying they are feeling bad because the doctor said X, like, that happened. Don’t deny that. And ask what they need and how you can support them.
Corinne
I think that’s good advice.
Q: This recent newsletter was such a good read regarding supporting kids when they’re bullied about their weight. I’d also love to hear you guys talk about the flip side.
Two of my young kids (7 and 4) have started using fat as an insult to each other. They’re both very thin. And the phrase was inspired by a movie with a fat cat character and lots of fat jokes (Miyazaki’s The Cat Returns - to be honest, do not recommend.) My instinct was to say both “Hey, never say that again” and also, “there’s nothing wrong with being fat,” and start a conversation from there. But all of these feel insufficient in different ways.
And it’s not close to home enough for them right now to engage with me in a very meaningful conversation. My husband and I are also thin and the closest person in their life who is fat is my mom, who was very vocal about her body being bad, and also just had weight loss surgery. In a way, even though we don’t live close to her or see her more than a few times a year, it feels like she will be the authority on fatness in their lives because of how much she talks about it. And the fact that it’s her lived experience.
So anyway, I’d love to hear your thoughts on raising my thin kids not to be assholes.
Virginia
First, thank you for this question. I really appreciate when thin parents are doing this work with their thin kids and recognizing how important this is. So that’s great. I think there’s two layers to this. I think the first is, what do you say in the moment? How do you respond when your kid uses fat as an insult? And I will share some thoughts on that.
But first, I want to take a step back and say: We need to facilitate more examples of fat joy and fat excellence in your kids lives. Y’all need some fat friends! And you need to look for books with representations of fat characters! We can link to some of those in the transcript that are age appropriate. Definitely Bodies Are Cool by Tyler Feder, but there are others: Check out this list, as well as I Love My Body Because, Beautifully Me, and I just picked up The Truth About Grandparents, which I love especially given your question and because it shows a fat grandma living such a joyful life, without any discussion of her body.
You need to be showing them fat bodies as joyful and strong and competent and wonderful and saying “I love fat people” to your kids often to start to do some counter programming.
I think when you watch a movie and there are fat jokes, you press pause and you say, “I don’t love what I’m hearing, I don’t love the way they’re talking about this cat. I think a fat cat is awesome. What do you guys think?” And you try to have a conversation. I get that your kids are young, but they’re not that much younger than my kids and I’ve been trying to have these conversations with my kids since they were that age. There are definitely a lot of blank looks and a lot of “I don’t knows” and why is mom talking about this again vibes. But I just keep chipping away at it because I’ve got thin kids, too, and they’re not allowed to walk around being assholes about this.
Corinne
I think it would be great if you could find some fat people to befriend. Showing them media representation of fat folks would also be awesome.
Virginia
I’m probably not gonna watch The Cat Returns now, either, even though Totoro, I think, is a great fat icon in Miyazaki’s world. So this is disappointing that they went there with this one, which I haven’t seen. But if we stumble across it, I use that as an opportunity to have a conversation.
Okay, so then in the moment when your kids start using fat as an insult to each other, I think you can just quickly say something like, “Why are you using fat as an insult? There’s nothing wrong with being fat.” I would require some accountability—gentle, loving accountability. They are only four and seven, they don’t understand the broader context of all of this. And you do have to make space for the fact that they don’t really understand it yet. And yet, all the research shows us these are the ages when fat phobia is learned. You are up against that. So I think, “Why are you using fat as an insult? Tell me more about why you’re using that word,” and then starting to have that conversation. I wouldn’t say “never, ever say that again,” because fat is not a bad word. It’s not a word you’re trying to ban in your house. It’s a word you’re reclaiming. So that’s important.
Corinne
But could you say something like, “Hey, I don’t want to hear you using fat as an insult”?
Virginia
Yeah, I think that’s totally fair.
Corinne
Because I feel like the urge to be really serious about it could have an effect.
Virginia
You don’t want to shame your kid for trying something out, because kids are trying things out. They don’t know the bigger context. But if you just inserted any racial minority here or gay, I think a lot of parents would feel pretty competent, if their seven year old called their four year old gay, having a moment and saying there’s nothing wrong with gay. We love lots of gay people. What are you doing? It’s really the same conversation. Think about how you would talk about that. And gay used to be used all the time as an insult. Some kids still use it as an insult!
I think the same rules really apply here. So if they can know that they crossed a line because these are words that describe human beings and we don’t weaponize people’s characteristics like this.
Corinne
I think that’s very good advice.
Virginia
Q: I am from the south and I grew up on Chick-fil-A. I worked there through high school and college. As I’ve grown, I’ve come to understand how harmful their Christian stance is to so many populations and have tried to honor my values by cutting them out of my diet. However, sometimes it’s the only thing I can think of eating. And the more I restrict, the more I hyper focus on the cravings. I’m curious to see what you think and how you might react in a similar situation.
Corinne
Let me first ask you, have you ever been to Chick-fil-A?
Virginia
Do you know, I don’t think I ever have. I was trying to remember. I’m not from the South.
Corinne
I feel like they’re very rare in New England and New York.
Virginia
I don’t think I have, but I have heard that they are delicious. Problematic but delicious.
Corinne
Yeah, I had never had it until I moved to Albuquerque. I feel like it’s fine.
Virginia
It’s not delicious?
Corinne
Maybe we have a bad Chick-fil-A here. My first thought is can you go to Popeye’s instead? Which, probably not helpful.
Virginia
It is hard because when you have like a specific comfort food craving it’s hard to substitute with another brand.
Corinne
Especially if it’s something you grew up with.
Virginia
I think there’s a couple ways to answer this question. I don’t think there’s a hard right or wrong answer. I do think if you are someone who has a history of restriction and that has been very harmful to you that your mental health and well-being can take priority over your larger societal values. Because the net good of one person buying one fewer Chick-fil-A sandwiches does not move the needle on shutting down Chick-fil-A or getting them to stop being homophobic assholes. And you denying yourself the sandwich does have an immediate harm for you. What do you think?
Corinne
I would say if you’re worried about the kind of stuff that Chick-fil-A is doing, the time you spend worrying about that could be maybe better spent doing some kind of advocacy. Like, I don’t know calling your representatives or volunteering at a trans supportive organization in your area or every time you buy a Chick-fil-A give money to the ACLU.
Virginia
That feels like a great solution. Your Chick-fil-A budget just doubled because whatever the sandwich costs, you’re going to give that plus like an extra buck to a group that’s fighting against that.
Corinne
Yeah. And I would just say, be vocal about that in your life! Like, if you’re gonna eat Chick-fil-A make sure that you’re saying like, “I love gay people.”
Virginia
A lot of love this month.
Corinne
The overarching theme of this episode is to say “I love fat, gay people.”
Virginia
It’s a great, great message.
I think there’s a parallel here to— I don’t love abusive farming practices, which are performed by many large food manufacturers in the United States. I don’t love when factory workers are exploited. I still buy processed foods for my family because they make my day-to-day life livable. I need my salad kits and my pre-cut butternut squash and my Kraft mac and cheese and my Oreos, my pantry full of processed foods that let me feed my kids. It’s such a myth that the solution to these problems are consumers individual choices. We know that’s not the case.
Corinne
Thats where the advocacy comes in, too. Ideally we wouldn’t have to live in a world where we had to choose between our values and eating a sandwich.
Virginia
Absolutely.
Corinne
Try to get the Supreme Court to say that companies don’t have free speech.
Virginia
To stop treating them like people and then we can really get somewhere. So I think if this is something you love and it’s helpful to you breaking up with restriction to eat it, then think about how to live those values in other ways. And I think that’s just the same exact advice I’d give about any fast food, processed foods.
Corinne
Yeah, I’m with you. I mean, I did admit at the beginning of this question that I have eaten at Chick-fil-A. I do try to avoid it. But we also have a Popeye’s here, and I think Popeye’s is superior.
Virginia
It is an easy moral quandary for you to solve.
Corinne
I’m sure Popeye’s also does not great things.
Virginia
There’s no ethical consumption under capitalism. So yes, we’re all just doing the best we can.
Corinne
Q: Do you ever just not want to think about this stuff? I’m grateful that you do, but it must be a lot.
Virginia
I weirdly don’t have this happen too often? I guess that’s why I do the job I do, is that I really love thinking about this stuff. I admit there are aspects of it that I tap out on sometimes. I think the thing that sort of exhausts me the most—and this is why I’m very grateful to Maintenance Phase for doing what they do, is the individual diet debunking. We’ve done some of it here. People love it! Those episodes do really well. I find it very irritating, because it is just always the same thing. It is always a restrictive diet that they’ve just wrapped up in some kind of bizarre marketing to convince you it’s not a restrictive diet. It’s always the same thing and I get sort of exasperated telling that story over and over, even though I also do think they’re important stories to tell and I understand why people love it. These brands and this marketing is really powerful. It’s helpful to break through, but that piece of it, sometimes I’m just like, oh, that’s again.
The other thing, too, is I have a lot of time in my life when I don’t think about this stuff, like if I’m doing a puzzle or hanging out with my kids I’m not wrestling with diet culture at the same time. So this isn’t 24/7 for me. I don’t know, what do you think about this?
Corinne
Well, I was like, immediately, yes.
Virginia
Interesting.
Corinne
For me, it’s more stuff that impacts accessibility. Like I would love to be able to book a plane ticket without being like, am I gonna die?
Virginia
Yeah, that seems fair.
Corinne
Or without thinking about seating at concert venues, restaurants. I would love to be able to go to a restaurant without thinking about what the seating situation is going to be.
Virginia
This is such a perfect example of what we were talking about earlier in terms of the small fat privilege versus the mid-to-super fat experience. I just want to say very clearly, what Corinne is saying here is I (Virginia) get to opt out sometimes and she does not in the same way. That is so real and I just really want to respect that.
Corinne
My mom is coming—this is in December. And she’s like, “I want to go to this place for breakfast” where we’ve been before and I’m like, I don’t want to go there because half of their seating is a very small booth that I can’t fit into. So we have to go show up and be like, “I will sit anywhere except there.” Even if my mom does it, it just puts a damper on the whole thing.
Virginia
You don’t feel welcome there because they didn’t think about larger bodies when they designed this restaurant.
Corinne
Anyways, it’s a bummer. Don’t recommend it.
Virginia
Totally. I think not wanting to think about it in the sense that I would like to not be perpetually oppressed is a pretty valid way to want a break. It is fair to want to break from the oppression. I was thinking of the question much more in the personal struggle space. And again, I just think that speaks to the different experiences. So I’m glad you highlighted that.
Corinne
Q. What are your personal philosophies on aging? And are you conflicted about it in any sense?
Virginia
I feel firmly that I am someone who was born to be an older person. I think my whole life I have been working towards being someone in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s who mostly stays in and does puzzles and has plants. I think the story I kicked this off with about my one night of tequila-sidewalk-lying illustrates how bad I was at being a fun young person. I’m so glad that I don’t have to be fun and young anymore.
Corinne
Wow. There’s nothing you’re conflicted about? How do you feel about gray hair?
Virginia
I actually feel fine about gray hair.
Corinne
Do you have any?
Virginia
Here’s the thing about me and gray hair. I don’t have a lot. I have several. I am not actively trying to dye them, but I do get highlights. My very talented hairstylist often places the highlights in ways that distract from the gray hairs. She doesn’t cover them completely, but yes. And because I made a self care decision to outsource my hair to her like about a decade ago, I just do whatever she wants to do with my hair because I’m always happy with it. That way I don’t get worked up about what should I do with my hair? So I haven’t started not dying it, is what I’m saying. It’s not because I’m happy it’s covering my grays, it’s just that I don’t want to think about my hair that much. But as I get more grays, I will not be trying to hide them. Am I conflicted about aging? When does it come up for me?
Corinne
Sagging face? Menopause? Any feelings?
Virginia
Sagging face, a little bit. I will admit to feelings about face sagging sometimes. That’s come up a few times. I do have a lot more chin hair in my 40’s and managing that is a hobby I didn’t really want. So that one, sure.
Menopause, I don’t even know. I mean, my relationship with my menstrual health is that I’m suppressing it all with an IUD for as long as possible. So I don’t know, menopause could be a gift. It could be a nightmare. I have no idea. But what’s going on currently isn’t great, so it’s not like I’m gonna be losing out on some beautiful experience of menstruation.
Mostly I just love having to give fewer fucks about stuff. What about you? You sound a little more conflicted. And we should say, I’m older! I’m several years older,
Corinne
Not by much.
Virginia
I’m going to be 42 in a few months.
Corinne
I’ll be 37 when you listen to this podcast, if I did the math right. I always thought that I wouldn’t care and then when I started getting gray hairs, I was like, OH, I do care. I have the color of hair that you can’t really see them unless you’re up close. I feel sad that I’m gonna have different hair in a few years. I identify with how my hair looks. But I don’t know that I will start dyeing it because it seems like a lot of work and money. But yeah, I feel low key sad about it. But I do feel also good about still being alive and giving fewer fucks.
Virginia
I mean, I think there’s a lot of ways in which I haven’t had to contend with a lot of ageism yet because I work from home, not in an office where I think it would be dealing with ageism much more concretely on a daily basis. I think that that would be harder and may become harder.
I have hit this point when I suddenly realized that my age or my weight—either one—often renders me invisible, like to a man or something. I’m usually amused/fine with it. Like annoyed sometimes, but also like, oh God, are you really going to be this cliched? Oh, right. Of course. This is where we are.
But again, there’s privilege here. My job is not hinging on how people perceive my age yet, so we’ll see. Obviously, the idea of adding more oppression is not exciting. And the idea of dying one day isn’t a cheery thought. But I don’t miss my 20s at all. No.
Corinne
You don’t miss lying on the sidewalk?
Virginia
It was one night! It was one night. I can’t underscore that enough.
Corinne
You’re never going to live that down.
Virginia
Oh boy. Alright.
Corinne
Okay. I’m also really excited about this question.
Q: I’m in a breakfast rut. What are your current favorite breakfasts?
Virginia
I am a lifelong breakfast rut person. Fun fact about me: from the ages of 8 to 33 my breakfast every day was toast with peanut butter and banana on top. And then when I was 33, I got into smoothies. And my breakfast ever since has been the same exact smoothie.
Corinne
Whoa.
Virginia
So now because I get up so early now I have the smoothie as my first breakfast and then I usually have my peanut butter and banana toast around 9 or 10 as my second breakfast. That is my breakfast story.
]When I’m going on vacation I can mix it up. I do really enjoy an egg sandwich or a breakfast burrito situation. I wake up very hungry and excited for my breakfast, but I also don’t want to cook or prepare elaborate things in the morning.
Corinne
I have the opposite experience, which is I’m always eating something different for breakfast. But I think for the same reason, which is I wake up starving. Breakfast is my hungriest, big breakfast. And I have come around to the philosophy of any food is good for breakfast. So I will eat soup or a burrito. I’ll just eat any food that I’m excited to eat.
Virginia
Leftover pasta is a great breakfast. Sometimes I have that as the mid morning breakfast.
Corinne
I don’t love sweet breakfast stuff. So peanut butter toast and smoothies are like, eh. I’ve gotten really into having beans for breakfast. That’s my new thing. Sometimes I’ll have like beans and tater tots or sometimes I’ll have a quesadilla with beans in it.
Virginia
I am hangry if I don’t have enough to eat by 10 am.
Corinne
I really feel like people should just eat whatever they like for breakfast. If you want pizza, if you want mac and cheese, just eat it.
Virginia
I like this.
Corinne
But also a smoothie is good if you’re in a rut. It’s very practical.
Virginia
I also want to be clear that when I say smoothie, I drink like 20 ounces of smoothie. It’s a very large smoothie. I’m not having some kind of diet culture-y sad breakfast. It does contain protein powder. I’ve written before about how protein powder is a diet food I reclaimed. Just because I do find it really actually fills me up. Portein poowder and peanut butter—they both have to be in there—and blueberries and milk, is my smoothie recipe.
Corinne
So, is it cold?
Virginia
Yeah, the blueberries are frozen.
Corinne
I don’t want a cold drink in the winter.
Virginia
I get that, but It doesn’t bother me.
Corinne
You don’t care.
Virginia
And my kids are obsessed with it, too. I make like a 50 ounce smoothie every morning and we all split up. We spend a fortune on frozen blueberries. Dan buys the five pound bags at Wal-mart and we go through one like every three days.
Corinne
Wow. That’s amazing. I might try that. I really like smoothies in summer when it’s hot.
Virginia
I mean, it basically is a chocolate milkshake. That’s why my kids like it. And I also why I like it. Again, when I travel, I do enjoy mixing it up. But I will tell you my anxiety when I travel is that there will not be enough breakfast because I know how much I rely on a very large smoothie followed by generous pieces of sourdough with peanut butter and a banana or sometimes an egg sandwich. If I’m not home for my second breakfast, I’ll often like get an egg sandwich when I’m out. And that will tide me over and I’ll still be hungry for lunch in two hours.
Corinne
This is making me hungry.
Virginia
What we’re saying is, Corinne and I are very invested in early day eating and we want you to have a delicious breakfast, whatever that is.
Corinne
I do think sometimes that for whatever diet culture reason, people think that breakfast is like a piece of toast and an egg. And that is not enough!
Virginia
It’s not enough food.
Corinne
I could maybe eat that for dinner, but I need like a huge breakfast. Anyways.
Q: You have 24 hours just for you. What do you eat/watch/listen to/do.
Virginia
Oh, man. 24 hours just for me? What would that be like?
Corinne
I know, this is not a question for me, because every 24 hours is just for me.
Virginia
You live the dream.
Corinne
Sorry, sorry.
Virginia
I would have my smoothie in the morning. And my second breakfast. It depends on what season we’re in. If it’s winter, I’m probably just gonna curl up by the fire and read novels all day and then bake brownies and eat the center ones myself and not share them with my children. Maybe do a puzzle and watch a movie.
If it’s summer, I’m going to do more gardening things and maybe go for a hike. But only if the weather is really perfect for it. Let’s not get crazy. The other thing I would do is some very finicky type of shopping, like antiquing, which is something I don’t really do anymore because bringing kids into antique stores is a stress level I’m not willing to achieve. Something like that, where this would be a bummer with the kids but really fun without them.
What do you do? Tell us what is it like having 24 hours?
Corinne
Like I said, I do what I want all the time.
Virginia
But what about 24 hours with no work, no obligations?
Corinne
That’s what I was thinking. So, if I had 24 hours where I had no plans, I would maybe go somewhere. I would either go on a little short day trip or go for a walk in a place I’ve never been so I don’t know how long it’s gonna take or something.
Virginia
Right, right. Something where you don’t have to worry about how long it’s taking. You don’t have stuff to get back for.
Corinne
I would do that in the morning. And then I would come home and do the movie/book/puzzle evening.
Butter
Corinne
Last weekend I went to a potluck and someone for the potluck had brought a huge bowl of popcorn and it was mushroom popcorn.
Virginia
Wait.
Corinne
Which refers to the shape of the kernel. It’s popcorn that pops into a ball instead of like a little floret or whatever. And it was so good that I immediately got home and ordered mushroom popcorn.
Virginia
Wow.
Corinne
Which I have not received yet. But my recommendation is if you like popcorn, which I do—that is sometimes dinner for me.
Virginia
So, not mushroom flavored?
Corinne
It’s not really even shaped like a mushroom so I don’t understand why it’s called that, it’s really just shaped like a little ball. I’m really excited to eat a lot of mushroom popcorn this winter.
Virginia
I’m excited for that because it sounds like maybe a slightly smoother shape and my big beef with popcorn is the stuck in your teeth finickiness of it sometimes.
Corinne
I’m hopeful. Wherever I ordered this from also had hulless popcorn which I thought maybe it would solve that problem.
Virginia
My butter is my Kobo eReader. I am so obsessed with my Kobo. I need to give it a real shoutout on the podcast. If you are an ebook person—I am definitely someone who given the choice will read paper books. I find it more lovely. But for travel, obviously, you cannot bring a lot of paper books with you. And the Kobo e reader is so delightful. I have had a Kindle and I actually liked the Kobo a little better, but the functionality is totally the same.
Corinne
Why do you like the Kobo better?
Virginia
It’s tiny differences. The one I have—I have the Clara—and it fits in my hand a little bit nicer. It’s a little bit smaller than my old Kindle was—I think I had the paperwhite. And I just really love it!
I am not someone who has divested from Amazon in any major way. I want to be clear, my protein powder comes from them every month, and many other things. But I did make the decision several years ago not to buy books from them because the harm they caused to the book publishing industry is so severe. So I buy all my books from my local independent bookstore or other independent bookstores when I’m traveling. And the great thing about Kobo is your independent bookstore can give you a link so that they get a cut of the ebook sales when you buy them on your Kobo. So it’s a way of supporting your independent bookstore and they have everything and the battery lasts 1000 years. I think I can have 6000 books on there. It’s just so great. And so convenient.
Corinne
That’s awesome. That’s a really good recommendation. I have a very ancient Kindle Paperwhite that could probably be replaced.
Virginia
We got my nine year old one for Christmas. So this is a little sneaky parenting hack—I’m also not anti-screentime—but I have moments every few months where I panic that we’ve lost the plot on screen time. I realized I could diversify the screentime a little bit. So I don’t put rules around when she can use the Kobo, unlike the iPad where I do have like a no-iPad-after-dinner rule because I don’t want the blue light to keep her awake. So she really loves the unlimited freedom of, I can have this screen in my room, I can read it anywhere. And she’s just reading. It’s all you can do on it. It’s great.
And you can hook it up to Overdrive. So you can connect to your library and so we also are using our library cards way more.
Corinne
That’s awesome.
Virginia
All right. We did another AMA! That was a good one. Thank you, Corinne, for being here. Remind people where they can follow you.
Corinne
Oh, you can follow me on Instagram at @Selfiefay or at @selltradeplus.
Virginia
Amazing and we will do this again next month, so send us your questions, guys!
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.
Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon.
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